9mm With BE-86 Shoots Low?

M

MP-44

New member
5.3, 5.5, 5.6 & 5.7gr, 124gr FMJ from Precision Delta.

The above loads seem to shoot 4-6inches lower at 10yds than 5.1-5.4gr of CFE-Pistol using the same bullet. Does that make any sense?

The crimp was a little tighter with the BE-86 than with the CFE. Also, with the BE-86, I used CCI primers and the CFE used Federal. I only shot 26rds of the BE-86 so more testing is needed, but with those 26 rds, all were very low. I was lucky I didn't shoot the chrony with the first shot. Lucky for me, I didn't set the chrony as high as I usually do.

My chrony malfunctioned, so I didn't get any readings on the BE-86 that I wanted to check today.


I liked CFE, but the cases were sooty, so thought I would try a different powder
 
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D

DaleA

New member
Well, wait for Uncle Nick or someone knowledgeable to show up and give you a real answer but IIRC (and I might NOT remember correctly) when I was reloading a slower bullet hit higher on the target and the reason I was given was because the bullet was in the barrel longer and the handgun had a fraction longer to recoil before the bullet left the barrel and the handgun was tilted just a tiny bit higher.

In other words, maybe there's a difference in recoil between the loads.
 
S

Shadow9mm

New member
Never used be-86, but i have used power pistol, which is very similar from my understanding. Also used cfepistol.

You cannot compare ammount of powder between powders. Each powder is its own thing. How much of 1 is irrelevant to how much of another.

In my experience with power pistol, i have found it to be very energetic, and produce some very high velocities, in the 1250fops range with 124g 9mm. From my reading be-86 can do the same with less powder.

If i had to guess the bullets are going faster, thus leaving the muzzle sooner. A faster exit means the bullet is coming out at a lower point in the muzzle rise, making them appear to shoot low.
 
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M

MP-44

New member
I stated the loading, so it would give an idea to someone knowledgeable on the powders what it might be doing, since I did not have chrony readings.

The pistols I was using, WC Beretta Brigadier & an HK P30SK, at 10yds, shoots POI or very close with every load I have put thru them, from 115gr WW white box, 124gr S&B FMJ, WW Q4318 (my favorite range ammo), to +p Federal 124 HST and Winchester 115gr Silvertips. Also some ridiculously hot PPU military surplus 124gr FMJ
 
J

Jim Watson

New member
I don't know WHY but four inches at 10 yards is a huge change, 40 MOA in rifle lingo.
Given that your other reload and all those factory loads shoot where you look, I would just give the BE86 a pass.
 
M

Marco Califo

New member
I use BE-86 as my go to powder in 9mm, 40SW and 45 ACP. In my completely stock Glocks point of aim and point of impact are the same. Also. Laser sights also yields steady hits. I use upper range of loadings and have zero complaints or issues. I also use CFE-Pistol, but not as much as BE-86.
 
4

44 AMP

Staff
You don't need a working chronograph to do rough estimates. Just look at your loading data and see the velocity they report for the various loads. This will be approximately what you are getting, and most of the time, particularly with pistol rounds what your gun and ammo is actually doing will be within a handful of fps of what the test data got. There are, of course, exceptions, and sometimes things are drastically different but most of the time they are fairly close.

Because pistols are held well below the line of the bore, and because recoil movement starts before the bullet has left the barrel, these things are factored in, and include sight heights for the most common loads and distances.

Slower bullets are in the barrel longer than faster ones so the effect of the barrel rise is greater, which is why faster bullets generally shoot "low" to the sights which are made for a different speed and distance.

The usual standard for 9mm these days is 115/124 bullets in the 1100-1200fps range with factory zero being 25 yds (or meters). Different speeds, and different distances will print high or low to the sights, some loads more "off" than others.

I don't use the powders you are using, so I have no idea the difference in velocity between loads of the two, your loading data should give you a rough idea.

4-6" at 10yards is a lot, I think. IF the two different loads had drastically different velocities with the same bullet, that could explaing it, but if they are close in the books, something else might be at work.
 
H

higgite

New member
I just got my first pound of BE-86 and so far have loaded and shot 300 rounds of 9mm 124gr JHPs. In 2 different pistols, I haven’t noticed any observable difference in POI with BE-86 than with W231, W244, Ramshot Zip or factory 124gr FMJs at 7 yards and 15 yards. That’s with MVs of 1050-1100+ fps. ymmv
 
U

Unclenick

Staff
Is this with both pistols? I have not used BE86 yet, but from Alliant's data, your load range is about right, except they used a very short COL of 1.12" with their 124-grain FMJ. If you were using something closer to 1.169", that would drop the load's pressure and could possibly introduce an ignition delay, depending on the powder's ignition characteristics.

Did you shoot these groups off sandbags? If so, we have a really odd problem. But if you shot hand-held from standing, I am going to guess you have an ignition delay coupled with either a failure to follow through or a bit of recoil anticipation that has crept into your shot release and that you are pushing the gun down, and the delay is giving that time to act on the muzzle direction.

Try sandbags to see if the POI shift goes away, or use the ball-and-dummy exercise to see if you are pushing the gun down.
 
U

Unclenick

Staff
Doesn't sound like much pressure shift from that. But there is still nothing to guarantee that particular powder formulation isn't lighting up slower than others, so I would still try the sandbags or the ball-and-dummy exercise as a check. If that's not it and the sights haven't been moved, we've got a real puzzle on our hands.
 
R

Recycled bullet

New member
Do the shots on target match at a further distance than 10 yd? Maybe these experimental ammunition will shoot to match the point of aim at 25,35 or 50 yards.
 
R

Recycled bullet

New member
Also... can you try shooting left-handed or handing the pistol into another competent pistol marksmans hands to verify the same zero point on target at the specific distance?
 
U

Unclenick

Staff
If they were high at 10 feet, then you would expect them to match further down range somewhere, but these are low, and given that other loads seem to impact correctly, short of something making the barrel point downward or the muzzle velocity being way down about 200 fps to allow that much drop at 10 yards (in which case, I would not expect it to cycle the gun), I don't know what the deal is? If there were a failure to cycle or the load felt super light, I would consider the low-velocity solution, but there's been no information on that. You could test for super low velocity without a chronograph by hitting a steel plate to see how it reacts compared to known good ammo.

Also, at 200 fps, you could see the bullet fly. The TOF would be about 1/7 of a second. Just fire it down below your usual shooting position and look over the top of the gun for it. Another person acting as a spotter could see it fly, too.
 
M

MP-44

New member
I guess in the OP, I should have asked, "what could I have done?"

The next range trip, I will try the sandbags and other suggestions. I also have a Scorpion carbine that was shooting my CFE loadings, along with Q4318, to pretty much POA at 50yds, so I will try that also. Also, I will pull out some of my later CFE loadings to see if something I did, changed.
 
M

MP-44

New member
It was me :-(

I made it back to the range today. The 1st pistol I used was my HK USP Expert. It shot POA. Almost like I could not miss.

I then pulled the Beretta Brigadier and HK p30sk out, which were the two pistols I used last time and had issues with. They both shot 4-6" inches low (did not have a ruler) I tried different ammo with the same result, until I really tightened up my grip.. I had to make a mental effort to maintain the grip.

I am not sure what the difference is between the 3 pistols are, other than the Expert has a better trigger. I had not shot the two pistols in years but when I did, I never had any issues. At some point, I picked up a bad grip habit.

Most of my shooting over the last few years has been with a S&W 41. The last centerfire pistol I shot before the Expert was a Sig P210 American, which shot to POA for me.

The handload of 5.6gr of BE-86 behind a 124gr FMJ was HOT. Near 1300fps out of the Expert. It shot POA out of my CZ Scorpion carbine and was shooting near 1400fps.

Fortunately, I did not load a lot of them. I am going to drop the charge down to 5.2, 5.3 & 5.4 grains and try those out on the next trip, now that I have my chrony working again.
 
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