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9mm Single Action?
- Thread starter SCDeac82
- Start date
Ruger Blackhawk Convertable
It's already been done. Ruger makes a .357 Blackhawk that also comes with a cylinder to fire 9mm.
It's already been done. Ruger makes a .357 Blackhawk that also comes with a cylinder to fire 9mm.
Thanks A4.
I didn't realize the 9 & 357 were the same diameter.
Close enough for guv'ment work as they use to say. I had a dual cylinder BH in the 70s. The 9mm was not as accurate as the 357 but was more pleasant to shoot and would adequately print @ 25 yards.
I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop on this one, but so far it hasn't. I guess I'll be the one. 9 x 19 mm luger and .357 remington magnum use bullets of different diameters. The .380 ACP, 9 x 19mm, .357 Sig, and 38 super auto all use bullets of .355 diameter. The .38 special and the .357 use bullets of .357 diameter. To further complicate matters, the .35 remington, .358 winchester and .35 whelen use bullets of .358 diameter, and I believe that the 9mm makarov uses bullets of .365 diameter. I guess for the ruger convertible, the 0.002 inch difference in bore size doesn't make that much practical difference in accuracy. I've used .357 bullets in my .35 remington and they work fine.
In addition to the Ruger Blackhawk convertible, Ruger, S&W, Dan Wesson, and Taurus have all made 9mm DA revolvers at one point or another. While those that have such guns seem to like them well enough, 9mm revolvers don't seem to sell particularly well and with the exception of the Blackhawk and Taurus, have been discontinued.
I was originally going to include the .38 smith and wesson but I couldn't find any sources which agreed on the bullet diameter. The sources cited diemeters from .359 to .361. Basically it came down to, "slug your barrel and use the diameter which most closely fits, while still allowing you to chamber a round in the cylinder". Since webleymkv came on line, maybe he knows. (although wasn't the mk V a .455?)
The Webley Mk V was indeed a .455. The later Webley Mk. IV (not to be confused with the earlier Webley Mk. IV in .455 Webley) was chambered for the .38/200 cartridge and was substitute standard for the British military during WWII, the official sidearm was the Enfield No. II Mk. I* revolver in the same caliber. The .38/200 differs from the standard .38 S&W cartridge in that it was loaded with a 200grn JSP or LRN bullet depending on which source you look at. Later, when the original loading was found to be in conflict with the Hauge convention it was changed to a 178grn FMJ. American .38 S&W ammo is almost always loaded with a 145-146grn LRN bullet, but .38 S&W and .38/200 are dimensionally identical and can be used interchangeably in the same revolver although the point of impact will likely be different due to the differing bullet weights. Most sources list both cartridges as being loaded with a .360-.361" diameter bullet depending on whether lead or jacketed bullets are used. .38 Special and .357 Magnum use .357-.359" diameter bullets and most 9mm cartridges including .380 Auto, 9x19 Luger, .357 Sig, and .38 Super Auto use .355" diameter bullets.
quote:
"In addition to the Ruger Blackhawk convertible, Ruger, S&W, Dan Wesson, and Taurus have all made 9mm DA revolvers at one point or another."
Although it was rumored to be under development, I don't think Dan Wesson ever made a 9mm revolver. I know of one home-built 9mm Magnum, however. Charter Arms can be added to the list: http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/CARR.html
"In addition to the Ruger Blackhawk convertible, Ruger, S&W, Dan Wesson, and Taurus have all made 9mm DA revolvers at one point or another."
Although it was rumored to be under development, I don't think Dan Wesson ever made a 9mm revolver. I know of one home-built 9mm Magnum, however. Charter Arms can be added to the list: http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/CARR.html
Mr. Webleymkv: great information. I have a mark IV webley, marked "war finish". You would get the right idea by imagining someone running a grinder across the sides before blueing it. You're right about the point of impact. It was a long time ago, but if I remember correctly the 148 grain wadcutters I used, shot about 10 inches low at 10 feet. There's quite a bit of history with those guns. Didn't sherlock use a .38 webley and watson use a .455 (his service revolver from the boer war)?
oneounceload
Moderator
I didn't realize the 9 & 357 were the same diameter.
They're not, and depending on the barrel, the accuracy can range from OK to horrible.
I would like to see SOME gun maker make a revolver shortened accordingly to the 9mm length - THAT would be a cool pocket carry gun
The main reason is, they won't sell many
The main reason nobody is making a single action revolver in 9mm Luger is that they won't sell many.
And the reason has to do with the buying public, and the 9mm round itself. Single action revolver buyers are looking primarily for either nostalgia, or power. The 9mm provides neither.
There is no 9mm size single action on the market, currently, and I don't know if the Ruger .32 would be a good conversion. And, its frame window is still longer than the 9mm needs. So, buyers would be getting a much bigger gun than needed, to shoot 9mm.
Single action revolvers are at the bottom of today's popularity for defensive handguns, so no market there. Even DA 9mm revolvers don't stay in production very long, again because of buyer preference. If you are going to shoot a 9mm, why limit yourself to a revolver's 6 rounds?
The Ruger Blackhawk in .357 with a 9mm cylinder enjoys a farily steady popularity, but that is because most are not bought as 9mm single actions that you can shoot .357 in, but as .357s that you can also shoot 9mm in, for plinking. And, accuracy with 9mms in the slightly oversize bore is spotty. Some guns seem to shoot acceptably well, others don't.
So, you would sell a few 9mm SA's as curios, but once that market is saturated, then what?
The main reason nobody is making a single action revolver in 9mm Luger is that they won't sell many.
And the reason has to do with the buying public, and the 9mm round itself. Single action revolver buyers are looking primarily for either nostalgia, or power. The 9mm provides neither.
There is no 9mm size single action on the market, currently, and I don't know if the Ruger .32 would be a good conversion. And, its frame window is still longer than the 9mm needs. So, buyers would be getting a much bigger gun than needed, to shoot 9mm.
Single action revolvers are at the bottom of today's popularity for defensive handguns, so no market there. Even DA 9mm revolvers don't stay in production very long, again because of buyer preference. If you are going to shoot a 9mm, why limit yourself to a revolver's 6 rounds?
The Ruger Blackhawk in .357 with a 9mm cylinder enjoys a farily steady popularity, but that is because most are not bought as 9mm single actions that you can shoot .357 in, but as .357s that you can also shoot 9mm in, for plinking. And, accuracy with 9mms in the slightly oversize bore is spotty. Some guns seem to shoot acceptably well, others don't.
So, you would sell a few 9mm SA's as curios, but once that market is saturated, then what?
I’m with 44 AMP on this, if a company doesn’t think it’s going to sell thousands they are not going to spend for the tooling necessary.
I have the same Ruger in 45 Long Colt and a 45 ACP cylinder.
I purchased it a long time ago before I started reloading, and bought it for a test gun thinking that I could use it to work up loads for my Gold cup, fool that I am.
With .455 diameter lead bullets out of the Long Colt the gun is very accurate. But for .451 diameter bullets with the 45 ACP cylinders I have NEVER held better than 6 inch groups at 15 YARDS!!!!! And that’s with an 8 inch barrel.
I don’t think I have had the ACP cylinder on the gun in 20 years.
Now you could overcome that difference by buying bullets of a larger diameter and I know that Penn bullets does make several different sized bullets for most calibers and he also might do special orders to size.
I have the same Ruger in 45 Long Colt and a 45 ACP cylinder.
I purchased it a long time ago before I started reloading, and bought it for a test gun thinking that I could use it to work up loads for my Gold cup, fool that I am.
With .455 diameter lead bullets out of the Long Colt the gun is very accurate. But for .451 diameter bullets with the 45 ACP cylinders I have NEVER held better than 6 inch groups at 15 YARDS!!!!! And that’s with an 8 inch barrel.
I don’t think I have had the ACP cylinder on the gun in 20 years.
Now you could overcome that difference by buying bullets of a larger diameter and I know that Penn bullets does make several different sized bullets for most calibers and he also might do special orders to size.
Hi, Webleymkv,
Yes, most books say bullets for the No 2 revolver are .360" or so. But I have miked a bunch and guess what? How about .357? And that is what the bores on a lot of those Enfields and MK IV Webleys mike out to, also. In fact, a couple of thousandths doesn't matter much at all, of concern more to folks who like to play with calipers than folks who just shoot guns.
Guys, the advantage of a 9mm or .45 ACP SA revolver is that there is no extraction problem; an old-fashioned ejector rod doesn't care if the case has a rim or not.
Jim
Yes, most books say bullets for the No 2 revolver are .360" or so. But I have miked a bunch and guess what? How about .357? And that is what the bores on a lot of those Enfields and MK IV Webleys mike out to, also. In fact, a couple of thousandths doesn't matter much at all, of concern more to folks who like to play with calipers than folks who just shoot guns.
Guys, the advantage of a 9mm or .45 ACP SA revolver is that there is no extraction problem; an old-fashioned ejector rod doesn't care if the case has a rim or not.
Jim
Venom1956 wrote:
I've heard of it done. Should have no major issues...as you've mentioned, same frame (as the large Vaquero...NOT the New Vaquero). It will need to be "fitted" however. If you are not familiar, have a smith do it that is.
Has anyone tried fitting a 9mm Blackhawk in to a Vaq? I assume it would be safe they are the same frames... I wonder how the POI and POA work out?
I've heard of it done. Should have no major issues...as you've mentioned, same frame (as the large Vaquero...NOT the New Vaquero). It will need to be "fitted" however. If you are not familiar, have a smith do it that is.
I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop on this one, but so far it hasn't. I guess I'll be the one. 9 x 19 mm luger and .357 remington magnum use bullets of different diameters. The .380 ACP, 9 x 19mm, .357 Sig, and 38 super auto all use bullets of .355 diameter.
Actually, 9mm Luger can vary from .355 to .356 depending on who loaded it.