9mm carbine for home defense - choice?

[spacecoast]

Yes, this post is a bit tongue in cheek, but comparing the two "rifles" below offers some interesting contrasts.

The modern Hi-Point 995TS with a pistol grip is a good solid operator, but is front heavy and requires two hands to hold/point with ease. The standard magazine holds 10 rounds.

On the other hand, the WWI Artillery Luger (8" barrel) is well balanced and very easy to hold tight to the shoulder with one hand, leaving the other hand free for a flashlight, a phone or whatever. The standard magazine capacity is only 7 or 8 rounds, but a 32 round snail drum makes this a potent package. The snail drum would add a good bit of weight.

In case any of you are wondering about SBR rules and the legality of attaching a stock without registering as a SBR, the 8" Artillery Luger is legal with an original or reproduction stock because it is an antique collectible firearm and was originally issued with such a stock. A standard 4" barrel Luger is not legal with a stock attached, even though it has a stock lug.

I believe there is a similar SBR exemption rule for Hi Powers and Mauser Broomhandle C96s.

 

[CWKahrFan]

Wow... That's a great pic!

 

[SR420]

My 9mm HD pair.
Kel-Tec SUB-2000, Gen II G17
Gen II Glock 17
Both will accept 33 round Glock 'Happy Sticks'.

 

[cmdc]

Nice. My personal favorite is my CZ Scorpion, but I'd love to have one of those Artillery Lugers.

 

[spacecoast]

Thanks, here are some more pics of the gun and holster (which is a repro, but a nice one). It included a double mag pouch, mag loading tool and cleaning rod, so the gun and holster/stock together make a nice portable package. The fit of the stock to the lug on the gun was very good out of the box.

 

[CWKahrFan]

Nice presentation of esoteric German ingenuity... Thanks!

 

[44 AMP]

SBR, the 8" Artillery Luger is legal with an original or reproduction stock because

Sorry, but I do not believe this is currently correct. At one time, it was, but today (and again) it's not.

Check carefully, but as far as I know the current ATF view is that a REPRODUCTION STOCK does NOT qualify for "antique" status.

This is part of the "on again, off again" history of the BATFE rulings.

For many, many years only ORIGINAL stocks were allowed under the C&R exemption. Then, couple decades ago (not sure extactly when) they allowed that reproduction stocks were also legal under the exemption.

Then, a few years ago, they changed their minds, again, and reverted to their old standard that ONLY ORIGINAL stock were legal without NFA restrictions.

Not sure what the current interpretation is, the last I knew, reproduction stocks are NOT covered under the C&R exemption, so if you have one, AND the pistol it fit, and do not have the proper NFA paperwork, you could be in legal trouble today, for something that was perfectly legal only a handful of years ago.

I had a Mauser C96, with a repo stock. As soon as I heard even the rumor that the FED was going to make them illegal (again) I sold the stock. A couple years later, I sold the Mauser (for entirely different reasons).

My personal choice for a 9mm "home defense" carbine is a Calico.
Mine has a collapsible buttstock, dual pistol grips, and a 50, or 100 rnd magazine. Capacity is NOT an issue!

 

[spacecoast]

Sorry, but I do not believe this is currently correct. At one time, it was, but today (and again) it's not.

Check carefully, but as far as I know the current ATF view is that a REPRODUCTION STOCK does NOT qualify for "antique" status.

This is part of the "on again, off again" history of the BATFE rulings.

Thanks, I will check again on it. The "OK" status that I found was based on research on the Luger forums that I belong to, but I will raise the question again. Hopefully just possessing the stock without a stamp does not constitute some sort of intent to commit a crime.

 

[spacecoast]

I did some more checking and haven't been able to find any concrete evidence of the reversal of the "repros allowed" opinion, at least as applied to Lugers and Hi-Powers.

Here's the 1981 opinion letter allowing repro stocks - http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter58.txt

Here's a 1999 letter seemingly disallowing repro stocks, but only as applied to Canadian Inglis No. 1 Chinese contract and Browning Hi Power 9mm pistols with a "CH" prefix serial - http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/atf_letter70.txt. No mention of Lugers or Broomhandles.

I will post any more info I am able to find.

 

[boondocker385]

Nice picture. Do they make hi capacity mags for the hi point?

 

[g.willikers]

If you actually had to use it to defend yourself, which of the two would you care to lose to the police evidence room?

 

[K_Mac]

I think the Luger is an interesting old gun. The Hi-Point is an inexpensive carbine that would work fine for home defense. It would be my choice of the two.

There are 15 and 20 round "high capacity" mags available for the Hi-Point. Since they are single stack they are longer and more unwieldy than I would want to use inside my home.

 

[smee78]

Between the two I would rather loose the hi point than an orginal luger if they were taken into evidence. Plus the 9mm from a rifle is super fun to shoot and ammo is pretty cheap so practice should come fairly easy.

 

[ZEBRARANGER]

I too use a pistol caliber carbine as one of my HD guns, except its a .40. Its been very reliable and problem free over a period of about 8 years or so. Since my wife is comfortable with it and is proficient with it as well, we've made it one of our HD guns.

 

[rightside]

I CANNOT see myself leaving that artillery luger lying around handy enough for home defense! Nope! I need to snatch a grab my weapon, and that wouldn't happen with that gun unless the bad guy would wait for me to don my -"oh so correct" white gloves!

 

[K_Mac]

ZEBRARANGER, that is a nice setup. If suppressed was legal in my state I would have something similar.

 

[9x19]

My Glock 34 is the first thing I'd reach for - but if that somehow seemed inadequate to address the threat - and I had time to get to a carbine - and I wanted to use a 9mm - then my Lone Wolf SBR would be the choice.

Glock 34

Lone Wolf SBR

 

[Onward Allusion]

boondocker385
Nice picture. Do they make hi capacity mags for the hi point?

Yes, there are Hi Cap mags for the HP 995 Carbine. Pro Mag has 15 rounders that do work with minor tweaking and A LOT of testing for reliability. I know because I have a number of these mags. Ammo dependent. Probably due to OAL and mag follower & lip design.

Then there are the 20 round mags from Redball Sports. They sell for $25 a piece and are basically 2 HP mags joined together with a proprietary articulating connector. I have not had experience with this.

Personally, if I were to use a 9mm Carbine for HD use, I'd go with an AR that takes Glock mags, Just Right Carbine, or the AERO ASR.

 

[ttarp]

I'd probably hesitate to use the Luger, I kinda wish someone would start making those again.

This would be my choice for 9mm HD.

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[Old Bill Dibble]

I can't believe we are more then ten posts in to a thread with a picture of a HiPoint and no one has mentioned HiPoint's lifetime warranty. Try that with the Luger. They don't honor their commitments.