7.62x25 for CCW round...

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omegapd

New member
Okay all, before the flames start up... :D

I have a Norinco Hi-Power clone. It's not a Tokarev clone without the safety, etc. It's just like a Hi-Power, or later, like Norinco made 1911s...

It has been the most reliable semi-auto I've ever had and I'm already set up with extra mags, nice holster, etc. It's nowhere near as large and bulky as the CZ-52 and because of the round, it's the thinnest handgun I've ever come across.

S&B ammo for practice is readily available here and on the Net. The ammo I've bought for SD is a 100g Hornady JHP which runs about 1550 fps. The ammo is not reloaded ammo, but new ammo from Reed's Ammo (on the web). Personally, those figures seem pretty close to .357 SIG or .38 Super numbers and they seem like they'd be a decent round for SD if you're a believer in the "light/fast " theory.

It's also the most comfortable to carry CCW I've found so far. Thats the main reason I'm looking for opinions on the round itself. FWIW, I've been trained in firearms (LEO for 10 years now) and am issued a Glock 22. It does not fit my hands well and I'm more accurate with something on the 1911 platform. That said, I have a couple more in .38 Super and .45 but I don't like them either for concealed carry and they hadn't been as reliable as this Norinco in the past.

So, whatcha think?

EW
 
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larvatus

Moderator
There is not a lot of terminal performance data out there on 7.62x25 JHP. The traditional FMJ round excels against hard targets, which appears to be increasingly advantageous in addressing threats likely to arise against a LEO. It is an excellent stopper if you hit the bone; if not, not. If I were to carry a sidearm chambered in this round, I would experiment with staggered magazine loadings of FMJ alternating with JHP in the same bullet weight. As an aside, Sellier & Bellot quality control is reputed to be lacking, with squib loads creating dire safety risks.
 
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XavierBreath

New member
First, a caveat, I am not a ballistics expert, and do not claim to be. I'm merely adding my take on the 7.62X25 round, since I am somewhat familiar with it in a couple of my C&R pistols........

IMHO, the 7.62X25 is an excellent round if you are looking at penetrating heavy layers of clothing or body armor. It was developed for this use. In general CCW use, however, the bullet may well exit the BG and go on to injure others. Because of this potential I would avoid it as a carry option.
 
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omegapd

New member
Thanks for the quick replies...

Do you think that over penetration would still be a concern with a HP bullet?

Here's some quick links I looked up:

.357 SIG : 125g @1400fps

.38 Super: 125g @1350fps

9mm: 124g @1140 fps

These are the closest rounds to the Tok I can think of right now. I've never heard of these rounds being shunned in a JHP because of excess penetration. Granted the Tok rounds I'm using are lighter and faster than these.
 
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JohnKSa

Administrator
As mentioned, there isn't a ton of terminal performance data on the 7.62x25, and what is out there relates to FMJ ammunition.

The JHP ammo you have chosen may prevent overpenetration. However, it may also reduce or eliminate the ability of the round to penetrate body armor. If that's not a concern, then you're probably ok. Actually, if you weren't using a Hornady bullet (designed specifically for these kinds of velocities? I hope?) I'd be more worried about bullet failure than overpenetration.
 
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tulsamal

New member
Yeah, it comes down to the particular bullet being loaded. The stats are fine but how is it going to perform? If you could get the exact same load but it had a Gold Dot bullet, that would be good enough for me!

I might even consider putting a few FMJ up close to the top. The whole Tyler, TX/Mark Wilson thing has been on my mind. I ordered a Glock 35 and I'm going to swap out the .40 barrel for .357 SIG. Then I'm going to try using that for CCW. If I can find a way to get comfortable with it I'll have something that will work with or without typical body armor.

Plus the G35 is legal for IDPA so I'm going to start doing that in May. I should discover any problems rather quickly that way.

Gregg
 
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Mike Irwin

Staff
"IMHO, the 7.62X25 is an excellent round if you are looking at penetrating heavy layers of clothing or body armor. It was developed for this use."

Say what?

No, it wasn't.

The 7.62x25 is a manufacturing variation of the 7.63x25 round. After WW I about the only trading partners the new Soviet Union had was an equally ostracized Germany. The Germans unloaded quite a few thousand C96 Mauser handguns on the Russians, along with ammo, to raise hard cash.

The Soviets like the round, but didn't like the handgun.

When it came time to design a new handgun to replace the aging Nagant revolver and a hodge podge of other handguns, the decision was made ot keep the cartridge because the Soviets already had lots of machinery for making it, and they also had a love of things with 762 in them, such as the 7.62x54R round and the 76.2mm artillery gun.

The Soviets also liked it because it was very easy on resources such as lead, was very reliable in both handguns and automatic weapons because of the bottlenecked shape, and and decent ballistic performance of the type that would support massed Soviet infantry formations.

That the 7.62x25 will penetrate heavy layers of clothing and even body armor is a unique happenstance.

If you look at semi-auto rounds developed around the same time in Germany (late 1800s), you'll see a lot of small caliber bottlenecked rounds with full metal jackets.

Why? Probably because they fed about as well as anything in the new class of handguns.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
I want to see pictures and detail specifications of a Communist Chinese copy of a Hi-Power in 7.62x25. Apart from my silly political prejudice against a national enemy who has threatened to nuke Los Angeles, that is an **Interesting** pistol.

Quality Cartridge also loads 7.62x25 with hollowpoints. They have separate listings for Tokarev and CZ52 but I don't think I would hammer a BHP copy with the CZ stuff.
http://owlnet.com/quality/762tok.htm

I don't think a XTP hollowpoint at Tokarev velocity would do a crook a bit of good. And demonstrated reliability is worth a lot.
 
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novus collectus

Moderator
Read somewhere (maybe Makarov.com) that , for the cz52 at least, that the soft point was the best. It still fed properly and expansion was better than hollowpoint for some reason. Quality Cartridge also has the saboted round for the CZ52 (.223 Timbs w/ 30 gr bullet) that has similar ballistics to the 5.7x28 for the five seven. Although it is slower than the five seven it at the muzzle, it would hypothetically have the same at the muzzle as the five seven does at 100 yrds. It reportedly goes through body armour. Quality also makes 100 gr 7.62x25 for Tokarov and 52. Ive ordered both from him and can't wait to shot them. I was thinking about buying a cheap used vest and shooting it with the Timbs to see if it's true. If your interested I'll take pictures. Don't know but just a thought...carry a few Timbs with you to reload with just in case the BG has a vest.
 
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Handy

Moderator
I'm not understanding the first post. Is this a 7.62 Hipower, or a CZ52 we're talking about (the hipower grip being too small for 7.62)?


If we aren't talking about some newfangled version of the BHP, I can't think of a 7.62 handgun with a safety system that would make it useful for carry. There's no safe way to keep the barrel loaded on a Tokarev, and the CZ52 is has a single action trigger, no safety and decocker that causes ADs half the time. This sounds like bad news.
 
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novus collectus

Moderator
A proper functioning cz 52 in my opinion would have a proper funcioning safety. I have two, one unissued and one that's taken abuse.The unissued one I would trust the safety and not the other. But I haven't heard of a lot of problems with the safety yet just the decocker.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
That is what interests me, Handy. He says it is not a Tokarev and is smaller than a CZ but is "just like a Hi-Power." Chi-com or not, that would be something new in the game besides endless clone and gimmick guns.
 
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tokarevman

New member
I cary a Tokarev all the time, i love the gun. I use some home brew HP my fatherinlaw makes me and they work well.

I read an old story i can not rember much of it but i whink it was Winston Churchill had a gun of some sorts chambers in 7.62x25, and 6 BGs atacked him while he was on his horse and he shot all 8 rounds and stoped all six atackers.
 
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Jim Watson

New member
Winston Churchill was a junior officer and newspaper correspondent in the campaign to retake the Sudan from the Mahdi and his Jihad in 1898. He rode in the great cavalry charge of the 21st Lancers at Omdurman with a Mauser C96 "broomhandle" because he had dislocated his shoulder in India and could not swing a sabre or lance like the rest of the regiment. He reported "I shot three men for certain, one probably, one doubtfully. It is the best thing in the world." Whether he meant the pistol itself or the experience of shooting Arabs, I don't know.
 
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novus collectus

Moderator
Then it had to be the 7.63 mauser round that is practicaly identical to the 7.62x25 round. Another reason to get a broomhandle. More history.
 
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