7.62 vs 308W

308Loader

New member
I've been loading .308 win brass for my rem 700p chambered in 308 win. Yesterday I picked up some brand new American eagle 7.62 x 51 LC15 brass. I know the thicker brass has less internal volume and I will need to work up a new load. My question is are there any advantage to one or the other? Is their an advantage with the thicker brass and factory annealing that makes one better than the other in case life in a bolt gun? Is the internal volume of the NATO brass a velocity killer? The only reason I'm trying the LC brass is that I found a bag of 100 at 40% off and it is spankey new annealed brass. I know guys like the LC brass for auto loading rifles because of the durability of the thicker case, but in a bolt gun dose it have any advantages? How many firings will the aneling last? Are their any bullet or powder limitations I should consider? These questions may sound silly but the interwebs are full of puzzling information concerning .308 - 7.62 cases, just thought id ask before I begin loading my new cases.

As always thanks for your input.
 

RC20

New member
I don't use Lake City, if you want good brass two great options.

1. PPU is good stuff, decent prices (new)

2. Various outfits sell once fired brass, of those RP is common and my favorite aka go to brass.

I don't know if the LC you are looking at is fire or not.

Pockets on that for military are crimped so if its not removed?

Other than that, the annealing part is mis-understood.

That only affects the neck and shoulder and its a one time thing. The brass makeup may affect how long it lasts, no info on that part.

Typically I will get 8 to 12 loads before splitting a neck (annealing gone)

Case volume is a bit less and you would need to back off your loads.

Case might last longer, maybe not. If you shoulder bump that is the best way to keep it from separating.

Annealing limitations get into tools of which the induction type are the best (read the long running discussion on that)
 

Reloadron

New member
I recently did a little science experiment calculating some case capacities. All the cases were selected at random and each sample was ten cases. Each case was full length resized and each case measured following sizing. Each case was measured case head to shoulder datum and each case measured 1.630" for that dimension and each case was 2.005" case length head to case mouth. The brass was cleaned inside and out using a brush for the inside. I used identical weights of modeling clay (same type used in stock bedding) to seal the primer pockets. The clay was weighed and reflects as a tare weight on the chart.

Case%20Volume.png


While in this experiment the GI brass both LC 13 and WCC 10 did have less case volume if we really look at the numbers the difference was not that great. Things do not always work out this way as I have seen instances where the commercial brass yielded less case volume than the GI brass. Even with the differences I saw and reflect in the spread sheet one has to ask themselves how much would it really matter in an actual load? Someone running Quickload could likely derive a software solution as to pressure change for a given powder load.

The idea being does it matter enough? Some time back I got a good deal on several thousand of the WCC 10 and LC 13 brass and both have served me very well loading for my .308 Win Bolt Gun as well as several semi-auto rifles. Personally I shoot the stuff about five or six times and trash it. Some shooters like to anneal and get more firings. Obviously I would not suggest starting with a maximum load but regardless we normally work up a load anyway.

Eventually I will prime and load the brass used in the experiment and see what we get over the chronograph using identical weighed bullets and bench rest primers in an effort to maintain consistency. I doubt I'll see much change. When I filled the cases I used tap water with a few drops of dish detergent. This mix and a hypodermic needle allowed me to get the level even at the case necks.

Anyway, the spread sheet reflects the numbers I got and really did not come as any surprise. I treat GI brass the same as any other brass in working up a load and looking at results and watching my cases.

If you have some commercial brass run your own comparrison and see how things pare.

Ron
 

condor bravo

New member
I use the Federal American Eagle 30-06 ammunition for the M-1 Garand and find it to be quite durable. The primers are crimped in since they are military specs and have a date stamp. I assume the 7.62s are the same way. I prefer the Federal brass over others due to their heavier weight and greater bullet tension. I'm not aware if the American Eagle cases are the same composition as standard Federal '06 brass. I have come up with just 2 or 3 loose primer pockets with standard Federal brass and none for the AEs. I would assume there is some carry over between the '06 and 7.62 AE cases.

Bottom line is that the AEs will be great for bolt guns. Neck splits are almost unknown and if one shows up I just toss it and don't bother annealing after so many firings.
 
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50 shooter

New member
RC20, not sure where the annealing is a one time thing?

Most people anneal their brass after every 3-4 firings to keep the necks from splitting. That and to extend the life of their brass from work hardening.

I know guys that do this for the .50 and have brass that's been reloaded 20 times +/- a couple. That and if you don't load your ammo to hot.
 

ed308

New member
I use LC brass to reload for my AR10. But for my .308 bolt rifle I use Winchester brass. I follow the load data for either .308 Nato or .308 Winchester depending on which one I'm loaded for. The LC brass usually doesn't last as long as other brass which is typical for Federal brass. Usually the necks split or the pockets get too loose. And you got to deal with the crimp.
 

RC20

New member
RC20, not sure where the annealing is a one time thing?

Most people anneal their brass after every 3-4 firings to keep the necks from splitting. That and to extend the life of their brass from work hardening.

I know guys that do this for the .50 and have brass that's been reloaded 20 times +/- a couple. That and if you don't load your ammo to hot.
__________________


All brass is annealed. Most polish it off. The annealing for the case is a one shot deal by all mfgs. Nothing special about LC in that regard.

hand loaders may anneal the neck and shoulder (of which I do by the way)

Theyh don't (or should not) anneal any more of that.

I read statements like LAPUA is the best because its annealed, no, its the best because its well made (though Norma may be the best).

Lapua and PPU do not polish the front anneal off their cases, you can see it.

Most others do.

Its all annealed at the case neck and shoulder regardless if you can see it or not.
 

Don Fischer

New member
I've never shot a military round in a non military rifle but I have reloaded a lot of military brass for commercial rifles. Not a fact but think about the law suit you could have if you made 7.62x51 ammo that would easily fit a 308 and someone shot it and blew up their rifle! It well could be higher psi but probably not near over the edge! that said I would not go out and buy any military ammo to fire in my commercial chamber! My favorite military brass for reloading is LC stuff, hands down! What I would suggest is to buy ammo that is marked for 308W, no problem then. My guess, I don't know, is that 7.62x51 ammo is loaded with FMJ bullet's for which I have no use at all!
 

Reloadron

New member
RC20 mentions:
All brass is annealed. Most polish it off. The annealing for the case is a one shot deal by all mfgs. Nothing special about LC in that regard.
To reinforce this please note the below image. Some new factory brass reflects the annealing process and in some cases it is polished off. The below is some Seller and Bellot 30-06 Springfield. The annealing discoloration on this stuff is very pronounced. The center two cases do not show annealing simply because I polished it off. All brass (factory manufactured brass) is annealed, on some you see it and on some you don't.

Looking back at the original post and with a focus on case capacity as we have a few threads on annealing running.
I've been loading .308 win brass for my rem 700p chambered in 308 win. Yesterday I picked up some brand new American eagle 7.62 x 51 LC15 brass. I know the thicker brass has less internal volume and I will need to work up a new load. My question is are there any advantage to one or the other? Is their an advantage with the thicker brass and factory annealing that makes one better than the other in case life in a bolt gun? Is the internal volume of the NATO brass a velocity killer?

Something worth noting that I failed to mention in post #3. Looking at case capacity for the samples something of importance is the STD DEV (Standard Deviation) which plays a key important roll in which brass is the better brass. In the final numbers, lower right quadrant, the better brass has the lowest number for a standard deviation. The WCC 10 with a standard deviation of 0.010cc would yield the best overall consistency. People will go through great lengths to weigh powder accurately down to 0.05 grain and toss the loads in brass which sucks for uniformity and case volume consistency. Seems a waste of time.

<EDIT> I forgot the brass image! Getting old sucks. </EDIT> :)
Annealed%20Polished.png


Ron
 
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50 Shooter,

As part of their QC process, Norma's manual reports they test their brass to ensure it will go 10 reloadings without splitting. I've read enough annealing articles at this point to start confusing them, but I believe it was Fred Barker's Precision Shooting Magazine article in, IIRC, June or July of 1996, in which he pointed out that anyone having to anneal more often than once every 5 rounds was overheating the brass. Getting it too hot for too long over-softens it and weakens its tensile strength, and splitting in under five reloads is a symptom of that excess softening.

What we call annealing of a brass neck is actually called partial annealing in the industry. It is also called stress relief, as you want to relieve stresses between crystal plates, but not grow the crystals excessively. See the current long thread on annealing on this board for some images toward the end.

That said, there are now people who anneal every load cycle, but that is not because of splitting, but rather because they feel it ensures more consistent bullet pull from cycle to cycle. I am not sure that can't overdo it, too, if they aren't careful. I have an instrument to measure seating force, so I expect I will work that out at some point and report on it.


Reloadron,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to do all that and post it. What jumps out at me is how much Winchester has changed over time. Back around 1990 they were tasked with designing brass for the 1992 Palma match, which was held in the U.S., and at the time the rules still required .308 ammunition and the host country had to provide it. (Sierra designed the first version of its 155 grain .308 MatchKing for that occasion, too.) What they did was create their semi-balloon head case to make room for more powder, as keeping the bullet above the transonic velocity range all the way to the target minimizes wind deflection and vertical stringing, so the extra powder made sense. Those cases weighed about 150 grains. I don't think reloading them was part of the objective, though I did see a whole bunch of once-fired ones being sold by someone on Commercial Row at Camp Perry one year.

attachment.php


That head design saved brass, of course, and they started using it in their other case designs. However, I noticed in the 2003-2005 range that a batch I bought had gained weight and was up at about 156 grains ±3 grains extreme spread. Another sample (just a bag of 50) I got at the LGS as a more current sample about three years ago weighed more like 160 grains average. What you are showing is yet another increase, and it appears they've now wiped out the powder space gain they had created for the '92 Palma match.

I'm not sure why they gave up the powder space. Perhaps they decided the general public didn't care, or they figured out their powder costs to reach a given velocity were higher than their brass costs in their commercial loads. I am also aware there is more and more jobbing out of brass making these days. There's always been some, but there are more players in Asia and even in the U.S. (Starline now makes .308 and 6.5 Creedmore brass) who will do OEM work.

BTW, here's a calculator for water density change with temperature. It's not normally a big factor. For example, if your water was 25°C (77°F), your first result for volume would be 3.574 cm³ instead of 3.564 cm³. No big deal in the third decimal place, but for the sake of complete information, here's a calculator on line that I use for water density. Incidentally, run that temperature up to 100°C and you'll see where the fluid ounce got its volume.

Anyway, thank you again for getting a current chart up.

For those not understanding why the weight differences don't add up to capacity differences directly, it's because the diameter of the head can differ below the inside surface of the web without affecting water capacity. Below is a drawing of a .243 head showing the difference in volume the SAAMI standard dimension range allows. To a lesser extent, the difference in alloys used by the different makers also causes the brass weight to differ without affecting capacity.


308 Loader,

This article uses a hardness tester to find LC brass is hardest at the head. The semi-auto users like that for the rim's resistance to bending and because a slightly out-of-time gun can't easily blow those heads out if they are partially extracted before barrel pressure has finished dropping. Lapua came in second, IIRC, and others were lower on the range.

This document shows how hardness is determined on a 5.56 case head by the military, and the 7.62 is handled the same way. I have some drawings for that somewhere.

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jmr40

New member
7.62X51 and 308 are the same thing. One is the military name, the other the commercial name for the same ammo. There are slight differences in military spec. loads. But the differences between Federal, Remington, Winchester and all other commercial 308 ammo is just as great as between military ammo and commercial.

Military spec brass is thicker and tougher. As a reloader all that means is that you can load less powder to get the same velocity. But that also applies to any brass. It is all different. If for example you have a load using Remington brass with 46 gr of powder you may only need 44.5 gr in the military brass to get the same speed. Accuracy potential is the same. In my experience most common commercial 308 brass from Winchester, Hornady, and Remington is close enough to use the same load data. I have to reduce the powder charge with Federal commercial brass and Lake City.

The point of impact may well be slightly different. If I only shoot loads with LC brass accuracy is just fine. But if I shoot a magazine of 1/2 LC and 1/2 another brand I may see 2 separate groups and the overall group size will be larger.
 

Reloadron

New member
Unclenick, many thanks for the informative post. I failed to mention the water was tap water as I figured close enough and it was an ambient temperature of 70 degrees F with two drops of Dawn dish washing liquid added to 1.0 US Gallon. Another problem relates to exactly what you mention. I haven't a clue when the Remington, Federal or Winchester brass was manufactured. The WCC 10 and LC 13 are pretty simple :) but the commercial stuff I am sure can vary lot to lot. I also had some Lapua standard and Lapua Palma (small primer) which I omitted from my little science experiment. Probably should have included that brass.

Again Thanks
Ron
 

50 shooter

New member
Unclenick,
Yeah, there are quite a few annealing threads besides the mega one that jeephammer started. RC's comment had me thinking that he didn't anneal his brass. I know that brass is annealed a few times in the manufacturing process and then the neck and shoulder area last before its loaded. Then there's plenty of different thoughts on when it should be done...

Probably the most important part of the OP's questions is the difference in surplus and commercial brass. The military brass being thicker should start out with a reduced charge and then work out a load that works well in his rifle with whatever bullet he plans on using.

I do find it interesting that Norma makes the claim about their brass being able to go 10 firings without splitting. But if they've done the testing, I guess it must work as I'm sure they pushed it as hard if not harder than most reloaders would.

The info here on TFL is always great, plenty of knowledgeable people here who are willing to do tests on their own time and spend their money. That and share the info as most people don't want to because some are quick to ridicule instead of offering to help clear up some statements.
 

Slamfire

New member
Great data Reloadron!

Probably 99.99% of my 308 cases are Lake City, been shooting highpower rifle for decades, started when the M1a was still the service rifle, got my Distinguished Rifleman badge with an M1a .Most of my LC cases average around 177 grains.

Commercial cases vary all over the place, and you can see with Reloadron's data, weight varies within the brand. I have Federal Gold Medal match cases that varied between 155 grains to 165 grains. Shot the heck out of the those. But LC cases showed high pressure indications with loads developed in those lightweight Federal Gold Medal match cases.

You know, you don't have to magnetize the 308 Win. Load to M1a levels and you probably won't have any pressure problems with commercial or LC cases.

I suggest, with a 150 grain bullet, 42.5 grains IMR 4895 with your LC cases. With a 168 grain, 41.5 grs IMR 4895. With the 168, start at 40.5 and work your way up, because in some barrels, 41.5 is a max load.

Lots of X's were shot with LC cases and they are still great cases.
 

condor bravo

New member
Throughout this thread, are we talking about military LC cases or about Federal mil spec American Eagle cases that (may) have LC stamped as part of the headstamp? I have not seen a 7.62 AE case so don't know. But it seems that all references to LC cases are referring to the military and not to the American Eagle as indicated by the OP. Since the AEs are reported as milspec, I guess they are close enough to be the same.
 
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Reloadron

New member
condo_bravo mentions:
Throughout this thread, are we talking about military LC cases or about Federal mil spec American Eagle cases that (may) have LC stamped as part of the headstamp?
Just as a matter of reference where I referenced WCC and LC brass I am referring to once fired NATO marked WCC and LC brass as shown below:
WCC%20and%20LC%20Headstamps.png


I have since primed all 50 cases I checked the capacity in with CCI 200 LR primers and during the coming weeks plan to load them with identical charges (likely AA 2495) and shoot them over the chronograph. Once I get that done we will see how things play out. Again, I haven't a clue how well commercial or military brass is held lot to lot during the manufacturing process. For example powder has a VMD (Volume Measure Density) and if we read this for example they mention:
It is very important that you repeat this process with any new container of the same powder because the powder companies allow themselves a 16% tolerance between batches. This can result in over charging if you work from the same setting and the next container of powder you get is more dense.

I guess I could muddle through more brass and find some WCC and LC from other years and see how the stuff compares. If someone has and is good at using a software solution like Quickload they could run a few powders and note for a given load the pressure changes with the slight variations in case volume. I would be curious as to the results.

Ron
 

308Loader

New member
Wow great read, thanks all. It seems that either some readers are confused or I am as to the origin of the brass I'm talking about. The bag of brass I bought from gander's store closing sale is American Eagle (federal cartridge right?) 7.62x51 NATO head stamp LC 15 (Lake City / federal cartridge military contract from independence MO?) These are new never fired, never primer staked cases. I couldn't resist 100 new cases for $20. One thing I did learn from this is that stress relief / partial annealing can be polished off. Guess I thought this discoloration of the shoulder was semi permeant or until the brass was work hardened again to require another heat treatment. I guess I also assumed the "thicker" brass would have more life due to their being more brass to stretch and recompress when sizing, but from what I understand it is more about the case head being stronger to handle the abuse of the extraction proses in an auto loading rifle. As far as volume I already assumed that was a start over.

Thanks again for all of the info, I will probably read all this again 3 times to fully digest all the available info. The semi balloon head has gotten me interested, the H2o case volume experiment will definitely be run on some random head stamps, even if it doesn't affect much as some have stated. Uncle nick, spot on as always, thanks. The basic takeaway I am starting to see is mill brass for lighter bullets same velocity is good for your machine gun, precision rifle would gain some from a slightly heaver bullet increased case volume, slower burn, and last longer due to the less violent expansion and extraction? I bought this bag of brass only as an experiment in my own reloading knowledge. Grasshopper has much to learn. Thanks for the input...
 

condor bravo

New member
308loader
"federal cartridge right"
Yes, American Eagle is Federal. Now I'm wondering if similar unfired, brass only is available in .30-06, or just loaded ammunition. Will have to pursue that. Are you saying that your new 7.62 cases are primed or not primed ("never primer staked cases"??)? The AE '06 ammunition has crimped primers. My preference for Federals is due to their usually heavier weight which contributes to greater bullet tension.
 
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DaleA

New member
I will probably read all this again 3 times to fully digest all the available info.

308Loader---I've been here for a while and I am STILL amazed at all the time and effort some of the folk here put in to answer our questions with full, complete answers. And many times they include pictures and illustrations, which of course are worth a thousand words by themselves.

It's ridiculous to expect them to keep doing this but they do.

Thank you.
 

308Loader

New member
Not primed. Yes they do have 30-06 cases in same condition. I ran my new cases through my 308 die setup and tumbled the wax off. I plan to load 168's with either IMR4895 or 4064 haven't decided. I do have some 150gr sp that could be utilized. Rifle is 700P 1-12 Twist 26" heavy couture. 3k round count.
 
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