6mm U.S.N. vs 6mm Remington chamber dimentions
- Thread starter samsmix
- Start date
mikejonestkd
New member
The 6mm Lee is a semi rimmed case, and the 6mm Remington is rimless.I do not see how you can make this work from a 6mm Remington chamber.
6mm Lee
Case type
Semi-rimmed, bottleneck
Bullet diameter
.244 in (6.2 mm)
Neck diameter
.278 in (7.1 mm)
Shoulder diameter
.402 in (10.2 mm)
Base diameter
.445 in (11.3 mm)
Rim diameter
.448 in (11.4 mm)
Case length
2.35 in (60 mm)
Overall length
3.11 in (79 mm)
6mm Remington
Parent case
7×57mm Mauser
Case type
Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter
.2435 in (6.18 mm)
Neck diameter
.276 in (7.0 mm)
Shoulder diameter
.429 in (10.9 mm)
Base diameter
.471 in (12.0 mm)
Rim diameter
.473 in (12.0 mm)
Case length
2.233 in (56.7 mm)
Overall length
2.825 in (71.8 mm)
Rifling twist
1-9"
6mm Lee
Case type
Semi-rimmed, bottleneck
Bullet diameter
.244 in (6.2 mm)
Neck diameter
.278 in (7.1 mm)
Shoulder diameter
.402 in (10.2 mm)
Base diameter
.445 in (11.3 mm)
Rim diameter
.448 in (11.4 mm)
Case length
2.35 in (60 mm)
Overall length
3.11 in (79 mm)
6mm Remington
Parent case
7×57mm Mauser
Case type
Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter
.2435 in (6.18 mm)
Neck diameter
.276 in (7.0 mm)
Shoulder diameter
.429 in (10.9 mm)
Base diameter
.471 in (12.0 mm)
Rim diameter
.473 in (12.0 mm)
Case length
2.233 in (56.7 mm)
Overall length
2.825 in (71.8 mm)
Rifling twist
1-9"
No. Sorry. Except for the case length and case neck diameter, the 6mm Remington is larger than the 6mm Lee Navy,
If the barrel has enough length in the shank, you could cut the 6mm Rem chamber off, re-thread the barrel, then ream a new 6mm Lee chamber, But you'd probably be better off starting with a 6mm barrel blank.
You would also most likely have to do some work to the action, bolt face, extractor, magazine rails, etcs...
A rifle chambered in .220 Swift would be your best bet, .225 Winchester might work reamed out, might have to set the barrel back a couple threads....
However, even with those, you're going to have to deal with the 6mm Lee round's rim being approx .03" smaller in dameter than the Swift's rim.
If you don't have 6mm Lee brass (and who does????
) you could pobably form a workable case from .220 Swift brass (good luck getting those, as well..) cases will be a bit short, but should be shootable in a bolt gun.Sorry I don't have any better advice.
Good Luck with your project!
Jim Watson
New member
Boggles my mind.
6mm Lee Navy is a one-off cartridge, it is commonly said that .220 Swift is a development and its brass has been used to kluge up ammo. But if you do that, you would be better served with 6mm Cobra.
RCC makes brass at $5.85 EACH. I think lathe turned from brass bar stock.
Buffalo Arms only wants $1.89 because they form it from .25-06. As I recall, this calls for a hydraulic press and lathe.
Dies are $110.
6mm Lee Navy is a one-off cartridge, it is commonly said that .220 Swift is a development and its brass has been used to kluge up ammo. But if you do that, you would be better served with 6mm Cobra.
RCC makes brass at $5.85 EACH. I think lathe turned from brass bar stock.
Buffalo Arms only wants $1.89 because they form it from .25-06. As I recall, this calls for a hydraulic press and lathe.
Dies are $110.
Yes, there is a reason for all of this. Let me start with saying that this is all under consultation with, and subject to the opinion of my local ATF type. Furthermore my friend is not interrested in what others would do, were they in his shoes. He is trying to folllow the law, not break the law, and at the end of the day it's his butt on the line. Okay, now...
For the last 15 years my friend has found himself...ahem, "restricted to black powder". That is to say, yes, he has a felony (non-violent) on his record. He DOES NOT wish to break the law, but would certainly like to have a proper hunting rifle again.
By his state's law he is okay, and in fact they gave him his rights back...but the feds don't do that. By federal law he may possess "antique firearms" including:
~Anything designed and manufactured in or before 1899, and replicas thereof.
He may not possess:
~ Cartridges that fit a firearm designed and manufactured a after 1899.
8mm Lebel and 7.62x54R for instance have both been chambered in newly designed weapons since 1900 (the Berthier and SVD respectively).
6mm USN went pretty well nowhere, and wasn't chambered in anything after the turn of the century...so a scoped M98 or Miroku High Wall replica in 6mm Lee Navy is what he is looking to have.
For the last 15 years my friend has found himself...ahem, "restricted to black powder". That is to say, yes, he has a felony (non-violent) on his record. He DOES NOT wish to break the law, but would certainly like to have a proper hunting rifle again.
By his state's law he is okay, and in fact they gave him his rights back...but the feds don't do that. By federal law he may possess "antique firearms" including:
~Anything designed and manufactured in or before 1899, and replicas thereof.
He may not possess:
~ Cartridges that fit a firearm designed and manufactured a after 1899.
8mm Lebel and 7.62x54R for instance have both been chambered in newly designed weapons since 1900 (the Berthier and SVD respectively).
6mm USN went pretty well nowhere, and wasn't chambered in anything after the turn of the century...so a scoped M98 or Miroku High Wall replica in 6mm Lee Navy is what he is looking to have.
Not to start any arguments, but once you rebuild or rebarrel a rifle it is no longer a Curio/Relic, so does the same apply to a newly rebarreeld M98? You might have to look at something like an original Winchester 1885 in one of the obsolete calibers. Like this
https://www.gunsamerica.com/906474152/Winchester-1885-High-Wall-40-70-WCF-made-in-1901.htm
https://www.gunsamerica.com/906474152/Winchester-1885-High-Wall-40-70-WCF-made-in-1901.htm
Jim Watson
New member
Geez, I thought he was just eccentric, but this is jailhouse lawyer stuff. If this little project came to official notice he and maybe you would be explaining all those little points to a Federal judge.
For one thing
The Winchester-Lee Straight Pull was made until 1902 according to Flayderman.
6mm Navy ammo is cataloged in the 1939 Stoegers.
And the current Buffalo Arms.
For one thing
is simply not so.
The Winchester-Lee Straight Pull was made until 1902 according to Flayderman.
6mm Navy ammo is cataloged in the 1939 Stoegers.
And the current Buffalo Arms.
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Jim Watson,
No, it isn't "Jailhouse Lawyer stuff", it's actual lawyer stuff and if you read my explanation you'd find out that it's being done with official notice from start to finish. If we end up explaining this to a federal judge, it will be BEFORE he proceeds, not after.
As to the 6mm USN being built until 1902, It's okay to have a rifle BUILT after the turn of the century, and cartridges chambered for it...if it were a pre-1900 design and no new designs were built for it. So it is so for my buddy's purposes. Not that I was here for your legal advice, JUST chamber dimentions.
Scorch,
That was definitely an option, and the 1885 was our first choice. In fact it may well be what he chooses, since it will be a full up custom ammo and single shots encourage brass retention. Lee straight pulls can be a bit scarce and also somewhat kaboomy, and those kabooms have injured and killed, otherwise he might have sought one out.
The law doesn't say C&R as it is defined, just "Antique", then goes on to define it as "designed and made before 1900 -or- a replica of a design produced before 1900". I will be sure to ask for clarification when next I see the ATF man.
We were actually thinking a custom re-barreled Miroku Low Wall when this all got started.
No, it isn't "Jailhouse Lawyer stuff", it's actual lawyer stuff and if you read my explanation you'd find out that it's being done with official notice from start to finish. If we end up explaining this to a federal judge, it will be BEFORE he proceeds, not after.
As to the 6mm USN being built until 1902, It's okay to have a rifle BUILT after the turn of the century, and cartridges chambered for it...if it were a pre-1900 design and no new designs were built for it. So it is so for my buddy's purposes. Not that I was here for your legal advice, JUST chamber dimentions.
Scorch,
That was definitely an option, and the 1885 was our first choice. In fact it may well be what he chooses, since it will be a full up custom ammo and single shots encourage brass retention. Lee straight pulls can be a bit scarce and also somewhat kaboomy, and those kabooms have injured and killed, otherwise he might have sought one out.
The law doesn't say C&R as it is defined, just "Antique", then goes on to define it as "designed and made before 1900 -or- a replica of a design produced before 1900". I will be sure to ask for clarification when next I see the ATF man.
We were actually thinking a custom re-barreled Miroku Low Wall when this all got started.
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All other matters aside, my question is answered: should he choose to proceed, he will not be reaming a 6mm Remington to do so.
...and look, I knew that full disclosure would open me for criticism, but I am only the technical advisor, asked to search for a rifle and cartridge combo that fits the criteria.
His legal counsel and the ATF are his problem, though I have the luxury of casual-if-unofficial access to the later.
...and look, I knew that full disclosure would open me for criticism, but I am only the technical advisor, asked to search for a rifle and cartridge combo that fits the criteria.
His legal counsel and the ATF are his problem, though I have the luxury of casual-if-unofficial access to the later.
Jim Watson
New member
Stipulating that you have the legalisms correct, I still see obstacles.
A Miroku (Browning, Winchester) Highwall is not a faithful reproduction of the 1885 Winchester Single Shot. There is not a single part in common. I know, I have both. Can a BATF examiner tell the difference? And care?
There are accurate reproductions available, Uberti imports them and C. Sharps will even sell a bare action. Will they sell them like an antique or a cap and ball reproduction?
If not, what will your guy answer to block 21 on the 4473?
Since the 6mm Navy rifle was in fact still in production after 1898 and ammunition was still regularly produced long after and is a catalog item even now, there are lots more convenient calibers originating before 1899.
Frex, would that BATF examiner agree that 7.9x57J 1888 is different from "8mm Mauser"?
A Miroku (Browning, Winchester) Highwall is not a faithful reproduction of the 1885 Winchester Single Shot. There is not a single part in common. I know, I have both. Can a BATF examiner tell the difference? And care?
There are accurate reproductions available, Uberti imports them and C. Sharps will even sell a bare action. Will they sell them like an antique or a cap and ball reproduction?
If not, what will your guy answer to block 21 on the 4473?
Since the 6mm Navy rifle was in fact still in production after 1898 and ammunition was still regularly produced long after and is a catalog item even now, there are lots more convenient calibers originating before 1899.
Frex, would that BATF examiner agree that 7.9x57J 1888 is different from "8mm Mauser"?
Jim Watson,
The rifle may be produced after 1899, so long as it wasnt a new design. The ammo may fit a rifle produced after 1899, as long as it won't fit one designed after 1899 (like the '86 Lebel cartridge, which also fits an M-1915 Berthier).
The 4473 question was answered for me about 8 months ago, but I have forgotten the specifics and will need to ask again.
How faithful a reproduction does a "replica" need to be to in fact be a replica? Good question, but I won't get to ask until after the holidays. Uberti actions have been considered as well.
While Mauser 98s and Win. M-95s have been considered, the handloaded nature of the project has made the 1885 rifles tops in consideration due to a single shot's encouraged brass retention. Smokeless loadings of 38-56 were even considered at first (formed from .45-70 brass)... but the lack of lighter .375 spire point bullets killed it.
A sharps? My friend is a good enough shot to be less than appreciative of its excessive lock time...but the cool factor is there for sure. He may even go the "buffalo rifle" route for elk... or all big game...but let's not dive down that path just yet.
I am simply less secure in my knowledge of 8x57J, and while I know exactly WHAT it is, I believe (perhaps erroniously) that sporting rifles continued to be chambered for it right up 'till WWI. If not it would be absolutely ideal, as my friend lives in antelope, deer, elk, and moose country...but again I'm too uncertain of it's exact history. Remember, no new models, only pre-1900 and replicas thereof.
Thank you for taking this challenging question seriously. I appreciate all the input, and especially some of the good questions. I'm sure my friend will, too.
The rifle may be produced after 1899, so long as it wasnt a new design. The ammo may fit a rifle produced after 1899, as long as it won't fit one designed after 1899 (like the '86 Lebel cartridge, which also fits an M-1915 Berthier).
The 4473 question was answered for me about 8 months ago, but I have forgotten the specifics and will need to ask again.
How faithful a reproduction does a "replica" need to be to in fact be a replica? Good question, but I won't get to ask until after the holidays. Uberti actions have been considered as well.
While Mauser 98s and Win. M-95s have been considered, the handloaded nature of the project has made the 1885 rifles tops in consideration due to a single shot's encouraged brass retention. Smokeless loadings of 38-56 were even considered at first (formed from .45-70 brass)... but the lack of lighter .375 spire point bullets killed it.
A sharps? My friend is a good enough shot to be less than appreciative of its excessive lock time...but the cool factor is there for sure. He may even go the "buffalo rifle" route for elk... or all big game...but let's not dive down that path just yet.
I am simply less secure in my knowledge of 8x57J, and while I know exactly WHAT it is, I believe (perhaps erroniously) that sporting rifles continued to be chambered for it right up 'till WWI. If not it would be absolutely ideal, as my friend lives in antelope, deer, elk, and moose country...but again I'm too uncertain of it's exact history. Remember, no new models, only pre-1900 and replicas thereof.
Thank you for taking this challenging question seriously. I appreciate all the input, and especially some of the good questions. I'm sure my friend will, too.
Jim Watson
New member
I didn't say a Sharps rifle, I said to check the Winchester copy made by C. Sharps.
http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/50/1885-Highwall-Rifle-Action.html
But at their price, you could buy a Uberti, throw away the barrel, and have a stock for "free."
I was leafing through Cartridges of the World and saw some interesting pre-99 cartridges.
It said the 6.5x57 Mauser was introduced as soon as 1893 or 1894, soon followed by a 6x57 in 1895. Even better, like many Mauser rounds, they were also offered in rimmed versions for single shots and combination guns.
http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/50/1885-Highwall-Rifle-Action.html
But at their price, you could buy a Uberti, throw away the barrel, and have a stock for "free."
I was leafing through Cartridges of the World and saw some interesting pre-99 cartridges.
It said the 6.5x57 Mauser was introduced as soon as 1893 or 1894, soon followed by a 6x57 in 1895. Even better, like many Mauser rounds, they were also offered in rimmed versions for single shots and combination guns.
Jim Watson,
My mistake. I thought you meant the actual Sharps. I've shot some C. Sharps Arms guns...well, one...and it was a fine weapon. I didn't know they made an 1885, but I think my friend is probably in the Uberti market.
I haven't picked up a Cartridges of the World for years, but it would have been my next stop. Are we certain no one made a new model gun in 6x57 or 6.5x57? Those would be nice and easy to make brass for!
My mistake. I thought you meant the actual Sharps. I've shot some C. Sharps Arms guns...well, one...and it was a fine weapon. I didn't know they made an 1885, but I think my friend is probably in the Uberti market.
I haven't picked up a Cartridges of the World for years, but it would have been my next stop. Are we certain no one made a new model gun in 6x57 or 6.5x57? Those would be nice and easy to make brass for!
Jim Watson
New member
A 6.5x57R is probably still available in new made guns. It is kind of like that Miroku Highwall, is a 2020 drilling a reasonable continuation of a 1898 drilling or is it a new design?
Unfortunately, 6x57 rifles were made pre-WW2 and commercial ammo was available. 6.5X57 rifles made by Heym are still available (6.5X57 was the smallest cartridge that could be legally used to harvest game in Germany for many years, so it was relively common. Ammo is still available from RWS and Prvi Partizan.) If you are looking for truly obsolete cartridges not chambered post-1899 that have some oomph to them you will likely be looking at black powder cartridges in large-ish calibers. Winchester, Ballard, Marlin, Remington and others made a whole flock of black powder cartridges that were quickly obsoleted after 1895 with the introduction and availability of smokeless powder.
The Miroku Highwall and Lowwall are modern designs, meant to look like the original Winchester 1885 rifles but are substantially different internally.
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Jim Watson
New member
You would have to look hard. Frex, .45-70 has been chambered in a multitude of rifles designed and made a long long time after 1873.
There is a good deal of "retromodding" with obscure calibers of the 19th century; things like .44-90.
There is a good deal of "retromodding" with obscure calibers of the 19th century; things like .44-90.