666th post, and an Evil Question: J-frame or .45 ACP?

Hand_Rifle_Guy

New member
Welcome to my Number of the Beast posting. Please leave your sacrifice in the bin by the door. All your soul are belong to me. :D

Now for the fun part: The Evil Question.

I have a j-frame. It's a sweety, a Model 36 in brand-new condition with Pachmayer Combat/Professional grips, and a slick Bianchi 5BH holster. I really like it. But...

I am a serious fan of the big-bore revolver. Well, big-bore anything, really, but we're talking snubbies for the moment.

Taurus (Cringe! :eek: ) has these new snubbies out in .45 ACP. I really like .45 ACP revolvers. I have four of 'em already. They're all HUGE, however. 1917's and Webleys are fantastic service guns, mind you, but I don't have a big-bore snubby, and I WANT one.

So you see my dilemma. To stick with what is regarded as One of the Best, or to change over to One of the Best CALIBERS, in a somewhat iffy platform.

I have other Taurus products. So far, I've been lucky enough to get good ones. That means I don't have much of an issue with quality worries. But how does a Taurus medium frame snubby compare to a j-frame for size and weight?

Would you trade 5 shots of .38 Special in a j-frame Smith for 5 shots of .45 ACP in a slightly bigger Taurus with moonclips? Does big-bore ammo and a better reload set-up outweigh better concealability and perceived quality?

Presuming a steel S&W, if you had both of 'em in front of you, which one would you stuff in a holster/pocket on a regular basis?

Opinions of all sorts welcome. I'm fishing on this one, as they really come up about equal on the first go around.
 

the blind lefty

New member
i dislike moon clips,but love the 45. for me,i'd stick with the 38.what i can't account for is intangibles,but that's why i like the 38 in this case.
 

JM at Work

Moderator
HRG, I've been thinking almost the same thing

I'm starting to think that my next handgun purchase will be another snubby revolver, and I've long wanted a S&W 640 (the hammerless .357)
sw640.jpg


But I've grown so fond of my .44 spl Bulldog Pug that I'm thinking something in .45 acp or .45 colt would be sweet.


2-taurus450-tia.jpg


Damn. I hate being broke.

-Jorah
 

Ala Dan

Member in memoriam
Quite Frankly-

I would never trade a Smith & Wesson revolver for a Taurus; regardless of caliber!

Make that trade, and it may very well come back to
haunt you for life.

*Attention Taurus Fan's- Please forgive my quick response
and short answer to this topic. I know that there are many
Taurus lover's that frequent here; and that some have had
success with their product's. My only experience (model 82)
wasn't that impressive; and I have never recovered enough
to absolutely say that I like them! With respect to my friend
The Fesser, I will admit that the Taurus Tracker is a fine
looking revolver. However, I will have to reserve an opinion
until such time as I actually try one first hand.

The "bold face statement" that I opened with is strictly
my opinion; and as many of you know, I have NEVER, EVER
waivered one bit from the Smith & Wesson line of revolver's;
except to make comment's on other makes of revolver's
that I have owned!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
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Brian Williams

New member
I have a Taurus Tracker in 45 colt w/ 4" barrel and I either have gotten great Taurus' or they are not as bad as some say. At least the revolvers.

I have handled the 45 colt snubbie and it was as good as my trackers.

You might also look at the 396 and the 696 by S&W, Tamara seems to like hers from her posts about it. They are 44 spec
 

Preacherman

New member
I second the recommendation on the 396 and 696 S&W's in .44 Special - particularly the latter, as I find the recoil in the lightweight 396 REALLY objectionable! Taurus also made a .44 Special snubby in steel, the M431, which is a great weapon if you can find one - unfortunately, as seems to happen with many good guns, they discontinued it...

Comparing a S&W .38 snubby to the Taurus .45, you asked:
Presuming a steel S&W, if you had both of 'em in front of you, which one would you stuff in a holster/pocket on a regular basis?
Well, the Taurus is very much bigger than the .38 snubby, so for pocket carry, unless you're talking overcoat or cargo pants with humongous-capacity pockets, forget the former! The same applies to the 696 S&W, although the shorter-barreled 396 might be a bit easier to conceal in a large-ish pocket.

Another HUGE disadvantage to the Taurus is that they ported the darn thing! I will never have ports on a carry weapon: I've seen significant injury caused by the escaping gases (I posted about this a couple of months ago). If they had a non-ported version, I'd buy one (or two! :D ) right away: but with ports, forget it!
 

kahrma

New member
I have to agree with the poster who said "I would never trade a S&W for a Taurus". Any way you cut it, you are loseing a S&W and getting a Taurus:barf:

Taurus more than just sucks, they somehow bring you down emotionly. Owning one can throw you into a deep depression that may have lasting effects on your sex life:D

Just kidding, but it is always a mistake trading a good gun for a shoddy one. Make no mistake, a Taurus is no S&W. Keep the S&W and just buy the Taurus.
 

C.R.Sam

New member
A....
Do not part with that 36. If you do, you will live to regret it.

B...
Little big bore gettin kinda personal. Suggest you mooch, borrow or whatever as many as you can before jumpin in with money.

My favorite "little" big bore is a short barreled 29. Six rounds of whatever .44 you like....from special to boomin mag loads.

Carryin N frames concealed requires adjustments of attitude, leather and dress. And suspenders.

Tho I like and use the biguns, I will not part with my I and J frames. They snuggle so nicely in all sorts of places and don't eat much.

Sam
 

Hand_Rifle_Guy

New member
Post 667. Free of the evil influence. Lead me not unto temptation, I can find it myself, thanks. ;)

Not to be confusing, you all should rest assured that I'm KEEPING my cute little M-36. I never sell guns, I just buy more. That M-36 is a prize, and I have no plans to trade one for the other.

Granted, Smiths are better than Tauruses. But Taurus is the only choice for a .45 ACP snubby. And all of my Taurus guns (Three of 'em, an 82, a 425 Tracker, and a 6" 441.) have been excellent, well-built performers easily capable of giving their more-expensive S&W counterparts a run for their money. For this reason, I'm perfectly willing to buy another one.

Now S&W 396's are a good idea, and the 696 is in the same realm, but the missing ingredient is the .45 ACP. That's the primary motivating element behind something as sacrilegouse as leaving a J-frame home. The .45 ACP has several advantages over the .44 Special. Things like two different extraction aspects for better ejection, short cases and moonclips, larger bore diameter, MUCH greater range of available loads with mucho superior low-speed-funtional hollowpoints, easier reloading due to better cartridge stabilization and rounded, auto-feed friendly bullet profiles, (Jerry Miculek "throws" 'em into N-frames.) and easier/more capacity handling of spare ammo with moonclips versus loaded speedloaders. A .45 ACP snubbbie? Of COURSE you need one! For all the same reasons you need an N-frame 625.

So S&W won't make one? What's up with that? I'd buy one in a heartbeat. I thought the 696 was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and that one had to be pried out of the company with a crowbar despite the loss of market share to Taurus, Rossi, and Charter Arms for years running. I'm not anticipating S&W to come through with something as simple as a caliber change in the meantime, a custom gun built out of an L-frame is too expensive, and a down-sized N-frame is too big. (Unless it's a down-sized version of that rumored .50 S&W is maybe flirting with. That I need.)

The Taurus new-generation snubbies came out of a re-design effort that downsized the Taurus frame to the smallest convenient medium-frame configuration. Now they list "medium-frame" and "compact-frame" in two different spots on their website. They're condensed here and there to make 'em smaller and lighter. Thinner through the topstap, re-contoured barrel, tweaks in the frame shape, that sort of thing. This makes 'em a bit smaller than a stock K-frame. That equates to a significantly smaller frame than an L-frame, which is what the 5-shot Smiths are built on. This does not get them down to J-frame size, but it mitigates the trade-off for larger bore size, somewhat.

Weight is a consideration, also. Steel J-frames weigh in at 19 ounces, Taurus snubbies wiegh 24 onces in steel, but only 20 ounces in titanium. Realistically, this is less of a consideration, as the titanium .45 ACP is not listed on Taurus's website. It might not be conveniently possible because of issues with bullet pulling. Without the minimum weight and that disagree-able porting, bullet movement under recoil could tie up the gun, as auto rounds usually don't get to have heavy crimps to hold bullets.

I got out my Tracker, and compared it closely against my M-36. The Tracker's a good 3/8" taller at the front of the frame and trigger guard, and it has about 5/8" more grip. (Ribbers are all the same size, and the new snubby is built on a Tracker set-up.) The Tracker has about 3/16" more cylinder diameter, and the cylinder is magnum-length. These differences are what let J-frames go in front pockets. K-frames, even down-sized ones, generally do not. This is why we keep the M-36 around, as sometimes you just gotta go with that front pocket. But if you're holstering on your belt someplace, it's a bit easier to accomodate a slightly larger, heavier gun like the .45. Generally that would translate into a .357, but those are problematical snubbies due to prohibitive blast and recoil. The .45 ACP seems a bit better suited to snubby use under such circumstances. And in the same space, you can accomodate two reloads of moonclips versus one speedloader of .357. That'd be 15 shots of .45 ACP with an extra reload, against twelve shots of .357 with associated nastiness of shooting. Hmmm.

It's really down to intangibles, I guess. If I move relative quality aside as a criteria by presuming a basically worthwhile Taurus, I look at it more as a question of size/concealability versus cartridge efficacy. I regard J-frames as a trade-off with the concealability/great gun aspects of the M-36 outweighing the lack of punch in the .38 Special. I'm wondering if the advent of the .45 ACP in a reasonably compact platform might obviate the neccessity of compromising on cartridge power. A revolver will go places that even the most compact of .45 autos won't. Now we have a dinky .45 ACP revolver for the first time, so I'm re-thinking the equasion.

Personally, I don't much care about porting, really. Porting might blast me in a close-in situation, but it's not fatal. The bullet can be. Getting cooked implies shooting while trying to retain control of the weapon, which seems like a small price to pay. Realistically, I think if I'm close enough to worry about porting, I'm going to have bigger problems with the flash gap. This another advantage of the .45 ACP: it's well known for it's low flash/blast characteristics. Unlike a snubby .357 which is, as we call them ourselves, a pocket rocket. Ideally, I would do without the porting, but it's not enough of a deterrent to keep me from getting a given gun. (I even appreciate it on my Tracker. .41 mag is a handful in a medium frame gun.) Hello, S&W, are you listening?

A "winky" .38 Special in a "Best" S&W, or a "Best" .45 ACP in a "good-enough but slightly bigger" Taurus?

It's an evil question, I tell you. It would be less evil if S&W would get off it's collective butt and produce the .45, but that's not in the cards. This about balancing trade-offs and compromises. Shades of gray, and niggling points of technicality. Opinions, impressions, and other such nebulousities.

Of such is the best of gun doctrine debate. This is great fun. :)
 

Gila Jorge

New member
The only 45ACP I'd have would be a krunchenticker
maybe a Kimber of SIG but would have a 33 Spcl in a snubby or heavy 3" like the 5 shot 44 Specl that
Smith came our with a few years ago...x96 something based on the L Frame not the N frame.
I've both handled and shot it and its great...a
friend of mine has one. I bought a 60LS recently
and meet those requirements with it. Maybe next time as I really do like the 44 Spcl.
 
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