51 Navy Hammer over travel?

deerslayer303

New member
The hammer on this 51 Navy, (I presume it's an ASP) has what I call over travel. When the revolver goes fully cocked you can still pull the hammer down a good bit. Do ALL the repro open tops do this? If so I don't like it, doesn't feel right at all. It's just WEIRD. The timing is spot on and the cylinder locks up tight. This thing needs to go south for some goonerization I do believe.
 

44 Dave

New member
Yes,Mike will add an action stop, which will protest the cylinder hand and the rest of the moving (too far) parts.
I just finished doing that to the 2 .44-40s that I added bolt blocks.
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
I am not sure I understand. Once the bolt drops, the hand cannot move any further and since the hand is attached to the hammer, the hammer cannot move any further, either.

Ideally, a SA revolver of the old type should be timed so that the bolt drops, the sear clicks into the full cock notch, and the hammer hits the backstrap, all at the same time. If the hammer is still trying to force the cylinder around after the bolt drops, there is excessive strain on the hand and bolt, and extra wear on the cylinder.

Jim
 

45 Dragoon

New member
Thanks Deerslayer303 and Dave!!
In fact, every S.A. can use a stop. In this case we are talking about Italian reproductions which are of the Opentop design and employ a one finger hand.
When the bolt "drops", that is when the left arm falls off of the hammer cam and the bolt head or ball comes into contact with the cylinder. In a correctly timed S.A., it should meet the cylinder in the approach ( also called a " lead" by many) about a bolts width from the locking notch. This is the second click in a Colt / type opentop, the third click in a S.A.A./ or reproduction of . The last click (when cocking to full cock) in any of the above revolvers is the bolt snapping into the locking notch AND the sear engaging the full cock notch on the hammer simultaneously.
This being the case, with the linkage/clearances of parts involved, the hammer can be pulled back to differing degrees after lock up of the cylinder. I've done many Colt opentops and every opentop and Remington that leaves me has an action stop. If no stop is present, the only thing stopping the action IS the locking of the cylinder. This is undue wear of parts such as the hand, cylinder ratchet, locking notch and added pressure againt the bolt and it's screw pin holes. This last thing is actually eliminated with the installation of a bolt block which is also in every revolver that leaves here.

So, the cocking "range" is from rest to the sear/full cock engagement. Everything has to happen within that motion. With the Mod. P reproductions that I own/have owned or worked on for others, none have had the "range" end with contact of the back strap. If I remember correctly, this is the same "range" outlined in Jerry Kuhnhausens book on the Colt Single Action. No mention of the back strap being the limiting factor.

Hope that at least explains where I'm comming from on the subject Jim K.

The bolt block and the action stop are what gives me the confidence that the tunings I do will last. In fact, any cylinder play/clearance a cylinder has at rest is the same as when the hammer is at full cock with your thumb still pulling back on the hammer (proving no hand pressure againt the ratchet). That wont happen in a revolver without a stop.

And, a stop was actually designed into the Mod.P (the large boss at the pivot pin on the hand was supposed to contact the web between the hammer slot and the hand as a limiter). This is a main reason that I DO install stops in all S.A.s . (even Colt thought it should have one!)

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

I just looked up in the referenced book by Jerry Kuhnhausen and on page 223 found " Make sure that the hammer moves freely in the backstrap slot, at D, and rotates to full cock position without hitting or stopping on the backstrap".
The true stopping point in the single action is the hammer/sear engagement. There is no need for further movement.
 
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deerslayer303

New member
Well 45 Dragoon, I just tried to bust some caps on this one and it only set 3 out of 6 off. The face of the hammer is dented pretty good, from repeated dry firing. So seems to me the nipples are harder than the hammer? The nipples look great so they could be new. Can you repair a damaged hammer like this one has?
 

BerdanSS

New member
I need to send mine to mike I guess too. All of mine do the same thing, once the hammer is at full cock it can still be pulled back a 1/4". My RAG '60 Army is my best shooter but is the worst with this. Hammer stop, huh. Never knew there was such a thing, learn something everyday.
 

45 Dragoon

New member
Ha! Thanks guys! Yep, the action stop is the number one thing you can do to prolong and protect the action of your S.A.s

By the way, the videos of Brushys '51 Navy and Washbusters Dragoon are on my website on the services page.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
Sorry for my error in saying "... an SA revolver of the old type should be timed so that the bolt drops, the sear clicks into the full cock notch, and the hammer hits the backstrap, all at the same time." I meant to say the "bolt drops into the cylinder stop notch". The old percussion revolvers were supposed to be timed that way, though many CW era guns are not. To adjust the action stop, the backstraps were filed, creating the backstrap variations Swayze puzzles over.

Jim
 

45 Dragoon

New member
Hmmm,

It seems to me that if that's how they were supposed to be, it would be much easier to dress the sear down to the correct length (to meet the back strap ) rather than filing down the strap to allow for a long sear. If in the future, a new trigger was needed, chances that it would match the already filed back strap seems very unlikely (hard to put metal back on). It seems that the sear/full cock notch is still the deciding factor. (An adjustable stop is so much nicer !!)
I've never heard of this setting for the opentop revolvers (but I don't claim to know everything!) but if in battle, the availability of parts was probably lacking, so a worn hand may be compensated buy "clearancing" the back strap so the too short hand can get the chamber to battery. (Unless it was "factory" filing . . . don't know how you would confirm that.)
Still hmmmmm . . . .

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 
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