50 Gr Barnes Varmint Grenade .223 1/9 twist

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4sarge

New member
I posted this on another thread, but thought I'd start a new one and try for more responses.

My first trial with a box of 50 Gr Barnes Varmint Grenades thru an AR with 1 / 9 twist and they went thru the paper target sideways! These bullets were given to me since they couldn't stabilize them in his rifle with 1/14 twist.
These 50gr Varmint Grenades are very long for their weight. The box has a sticker saying 1/10 or tighter recommended.

They were loaded with 26gr & 27gr of Varget. CCI 42 Primer in LC brass. I didn't chrono them. Hodgdon's data show approx. 3200 to 3300 fpm

They are fragile at the hollow tip and my seating die was indenting a "ring" in them. This is in a New Hornady die with the follower in it.

Any suggestions on the proper way to seat these bullets without damage?

Maybe they need 1/7 twist?
 
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bigautomatic

New member
Did you weigh them to make sure that they are indeed 50 gr.? You're friends rifle should have been able to stabilize these bullets. How fast are you pushing them? Generally, a 1/10 twist isn't recomended on the box until you get into the heavier bullets.
 
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tom234

New member
Sounds like your seater plug might be the problem and damage is causing a drag the makes the bullet unstable & tumble. A higher twist barrel is for heavier bullets but will also work with lighter ones. Slow twist barrels work only for lighter bullets. Consequently, I think your 1:9 twist is OK. Here's what Shilen recommends [notice "up to"...weight]:
224 CF
- 7" for bullets heavier than 80gr.
- 8" for bullets up to 80gr.
- 8"* Ratchet rifled 4 groove
- 9" for bullets up to 70gr.
- 12: for bullets up to 63gr.
- 14" for bullets up to 55gr.
- 14"* Ratchet rifled 4 groove
- 15"* for bullets up to 55gr. driven 4,100 pfs or more
- 16:* for bullets up to 55gr. driven 4,300 fps or more

http://www.shilen.com/calibersAndTwists.html
 
4

4sarge

New member
I didn't weigh them. There were 94 left out of the box of 100 that looks new. I believe they are all copper construction and they are way longer than a similar lead bullet.
 
4

4sarge

New member
Grasping at straws?? Lets review. New box of bullets. The box is factory labeled 1/10 twist or faster recommended. Friend can't stabilize them in his 1/14 twist rifle and gives the remaining 94 to me.

Weighed them. 50.2 gr.

Modified the seating die slightly and put a small cloth patch up in the die to prevent the "ring" from forming on the tip of the bullet. Now I need to figure out if the dent damaged the previous bullets causing them to go astray or if the faster twist solved it.

Shot 3 of them thru a 1/7 twist barrel with no trouble. Nice clean holes!

Will try the 1/9 twist again when my buddy brings it down.

Thanks Tom for the link, interesting reading there.
 
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bigautomatic

New member
What do you mean by grasping at straws? Are you referring to the people trying to help you, or yourself? If you think the seater plug is the problem, send one of the bullets to RCBS and they will make a custom seater plug to fit their dies. Hornady may have the same service for their dies. That is, if you are absolutely sure that you can't live without these bullets. They'd have to perform pretty darn good for me to go to those lengths.
 
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4sarge

New member
They were given to me to try.
I think I got them to work without any major modifications or custom work..
This is my first experience with them. Prefer the V-max given what I've seen so far.
 
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ClarkEMyers

New member
Varmint Grenade is lead core hollow point NOT all copper

Varmint Grenade is at least mostly lead core hollow point NOT all copper - with a big front cavity to make the bullet long and with the center of gravity more towards the back.

Barnes also makes all copper bullets of fine quality - X and Triple Shock and all the rest.

Be news to me that any of the Varmint Grenade are all copper and the all copper sure doesn't tend to blow up.

Anybody confirm an all copper Varmint Grenade?

Sounds like a bad combination of center of gravity and air pressure leading to a major yaw to me but who knows.

I'd make sure to ID the bullets and check the loading to match bullet and powder charge.

I'd also get an extra seating plug (or several to make the effort worthwhile) and use epoxy to form a custom seating plug on the greased nose of a bullet.

Ideally a filled epoxy such as a bedding compound but anything from automotive Bondo to candle wax for a short term fix will work. Fancy parting compounds from Brownell's or no stick sprays for the oven will keep the bullet from sticking to the seating plug. With the seating plug in the die try a little compound and put the die in the press and raise the case with a bullet in the mouth. Don't glue the seating plug to the die - unless you know the seating depth you want for all time.
 
D

Dan12

New member
I thought the VG's are lead free...maybe a copper shell over a zinc/copper mix for body or something like that...


Dan
 
4

4sarge

New member
Like Tater says!
From Barnes website:
Barnes’ Varmint Grenade™ is a unique varmint bullet that delivers explosive results. Originally developed for military applications, the bullet’s copper-tin composite core is highly frangible, greatly reducing the chance of ricochets. The new flat-base, hollow-cavity bullet remains intact at ultra-high velocities, yet fragments explosively on impact.
Click to expand...

I'll post back after I get a chance to use the rifle with the 1/9 twist. I'll likely not buy any of these because of the PIA factor.
 
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Toolman

New member
Well,,, glad you weighed them. Now you know what they weigh and have answered my question as well as eliminated another variable.
Hope the scale that was used wasn't one of those $30.00 digital scales that everybody's been having trouble with & returning. Been there, done that, won't again.

50gr bullets should work 'ok' in a 1:9 twist if you do your part, but that's the minimum I'd consider in that rifling.
My comment about them possibly being 36 gr is because boxes have been known to be labeled wrong in the mfg process. I have tried the 36gr varmint grenade in a 1:9 twist barrel and while they didn't keyhole, the group sucked and yes I was doing my part.
 
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g5910

New member
Length matters

The problem(if you want to call it that) with Branes 50gr varmint grenades has really nothing to do with weight as much as the length. The twist really doesn't care what weight it is, just how long. Powder charge and pressures make a difference with the weight and length. The longer the bullet the longer the bearing surface which causes higher pressures and a faster twist rate is needed if the difference is significant. The 50gr grenade averages 0.860". The 50gr barnes varminater lead core is 0.711" long, a Hornaday 60gr lead core HP is 0.790". Typically a heavier conventional bullet would be longer and need a faster twist to stabilize it. This is why Barnes states on the box 1 in 10 twist or faster. The bullet is longer than lead core of similar weights.
I'm going to work up some loads for this bullet in 22-250, 220 Swift, .223 and 22/243 Middlestead that I can publish later if anyone is interested.
 
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rr4406pak

New member
Toolman,
What recipe are you using to shoot 36gr VGs in your 1:9 twist?
What speed do you think you were pushing them at?

I want to know because I'm just about to work up a load for the 36gr pills in my 1:9 twist using W748 and would like to know where I can start...
Thanks!
 
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g5910

New member
Barnes VG

This is from Barnes with the 36gr VG in 223

IMR 4198 20.5gr 3473 FPS 22.5gr 3796 FPS
XMR 2015 23.0gr 3454 FPS 25.0gr 3755 FPS
RL 7 22.0 3488 24.0 3774
Benchmark 25.0 3514 27.0 3800
X-Terminator 25.0 3504 27.0 3777
♦ TAC 27.5 3681 29.5 3876 most accurate

For the 50gr VG
RL10X 19.2gr 2810 FPS 22.2gr 3202 FPS(most accurate)
H335 21.4 2800 24.4 3210
TAC 23.4 2965 26.4 3332
H4895 21.8 2973 24.8 3293
IMR4895 22.2 2857 25.2 3229
Varget 22.8 2997 25.8 3288
AA2520 26.0 3069 29.0 3383

I used 27.5-28gr W748 with the 36gr VG but I haven't chrono'd it yet
 
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big.dave1980

New member
g5910 is correct about the length of the bullet is what determines the necessary twist rate, not the weight of the projectile. You can ask any bullet manufacture, The nra fact book says the same thing, so do several physics books.
 
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A_Gamehog

New member
The Barnes VG 50 grain bullet is as long as the Sierra 69 grain bullet.

How could any .223 1-14 or 1-12 ever shoot this? they can't

My 1-9 AR-15 and bolt 223 both shoot this 50 grain bullet easily.

Lots of mis-information here that's been discussed many times. It's the length

of the bullet that makes this a 1-10 or faster bullet to reload.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

24.0 Grains H-322
CCI 450 primers
Lake city brass
50 Grain barnes VG

= 1/2 MOA @ 200 yards....

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
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