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5.56 vs .223 for Home Defense
- Thread starter LilPewPew
- Start date
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
There is no difference between the terminal effect of .223 and 5.56x45 at inside the home distances and scant difference outside the home.
As for ammo choice:
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
As for ammo choice:
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/
WELL, if you consider that most of the "5.56" ammo tends to be FMJ, I'd consider it less desirable for "home defense".
My choice of defensive ammo is either hollow point or plastic tipped varmint ammo for that ammo's expansion characteristics vs the "pass through and poke a hole in the wall" FMJ.
I also consider the .223 under powered for hunting deer, especially when delivered by inexperienced youngsters. It will work(sort of)under perfect scenarios but realistically, how often is hunting a perfect scenario?
My choice of defensive ammo is either hollow point or plastic tipped varmint ammo for that ammo's expansion characteristics vs the "pass through and poke a hole in the wall" FMJ.
I also consider the .223 under powered for hunting deer, especially when delivered by inexperienced youngsters. It will work(sort of)under perfect scenarios but realistically, how often is hunting a perfect scenario?
Same case, same bullets, same velocity, and they can be used in the same rifles 90+% of the time. I have 5 rifles, 4 AR's and a bolt gun and use the both types in all of them. Why would there be any difference.
For personal defense or big game hunting I'd use either a softpoint bullet 60 gr or heavier. Or some of the solid copper bullets of any weight. Stay away from FMJ or very light bullets designed for varmint hunting and 223/5.56 are more than adequate for deer size game out to about 200 yards.
For personal defense or big game hunting I'd use either a softpoint bullet 60 gr or heavier. Or some of the solid copper bullets of any weight. Stay away from FMJ or very light bullets designed for varmint hunting and 223/5.56 are more than adequate for deer size game out to about 200 yards.
marine6680
New member
Bullet type/construction is vastly more important at typical HD distances, and even out to 100yds or so, than a couple hundred fps in velocity.
The first thing you need to do is examine your home and it's surroundings, and determine exactly what performance parameters are important to you.
If you are concerned with penetration through wall potentially escaping your house or going through multiple rooms... Then a lightweight varmint type bullet in the 55-60gr range is a good option. They break up readily in interior walls, and perform pretty well terminally.
For the best terminal performance, bullets designed for deer sized game in the 60-69gr range are great.
Then there are bullets designed specifically for defense/police use. Some are repackaged varmint or deer type bullets... Others are purpose built designs. Usually with barrier blind performance in mind. Meaning they work well even after going through barriers like walls and doors.
My personal HD rifle is loaded with 60gr varmit 223... Specifically 60gr Vmax...
The first thing you need to do is examine your home and it's surroundings, and determine exactly what performance parameters are important to you.
If you are concerned with penetration through wall potentially escaping your house or going through multiple rooms... Then a lightweight varmint type bullet in the 55-60gr range is a good option. They break up readily in interior walls, and perform pretty well terminally.
For the best terminal performance, bullets designed for deer sized game in the 60-69gr range are great.
Then there are bullets designed specifically for defense/police use. Some are repackaged varmint or deer type bullets... Others are purpose built designs. Usually with barrier blind performance in mind. Meaning they work well even after going through barriers like walls and doors.
My personal HD rifle is loaded with 60gr varmit 223... Specifically 60gr Vmax...
They aren't the same velocity tho... Thats the whole reason you can't shoot a 5.56 out of a .223 gun it'll explode.Same case, same bullets, same velocity, and they can be used in the same rifles 90+% of the time. I have 5 rifles, 4 AR's and a bolt gun and use the both types in all of them. Why would there be any difference.
For personal defense or big game hunting I'd use either a softpoint bullet 60 gr or heavier. Or some of the solid copper bullets of any weight. Stay away from FMJ or very light bullets designed for varmint hunting and 223/5.56 are more than adequate for deer size game out to about 200 yards.
imashooter
New member
Probably less than a handful of documented cases.They aren't the same velocity tho... Thats the whole reason you can't shoot a 5.56 out of a .223 gun it'll explode.
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They aren't the same velocity tho... Thats the whole reason you can't shoot a 5.56 out of a .223 gun it'll explode.
Oh boy... here we go again.
The difference is the length of leade in the barrel. Mil guns, 556 chambers, have a longer leade (bullet jump to rifling). As such ammo for those is loaded differently then for 223 chambers.
Externally, the ammo is the same.
imashooter
New member
If a good "varmint" round is used within a reasonable distance, it'll knock a deer's dick in the dirt.
True it won't explode but it has higher pressure so it'll be like shooting a +P round in a non +P marked gun. It's too much pressure for what it was made for."Thats the whole reason you can't shoot a 5.56 out of a .223 gun it'll explode."
Highly unlikely and if you check the ballistic charts, the diff isn't THAT big.
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imashooter
New member
Do I recommend going against a manufacturer's recommendations? No. More times than not, many more times actually, the +P reference is an exaggeration. If interested, here's a decent article on the phenomenon. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/True it won't explode but it has higher pressure so it'll be like shooting a +P round in a non +P marked gun.
To me anyway, and I do not claim to know much, I don't think the 5.56/.223 (and associated rifle or "pistol") is a great round for home defense anyway - unless by "home defense" you are more thinking of defending yourself out in the open on the property versus potentially face to face with an armed bad guy indoors or near the house.
I think you want a big slow moving round out of a hand cannon - something you can discreetly move around with, answer the door with, keep nearby where you sleep, that packs a huge punch but doesn't travel too far or through too many objects. There's a reason why handgun rounds are the way they are and rifle rounds are the way they are - different purposes. That's what I think anyway.
I think you want a big slow moving round out of a hand cannon - something you can discreetly move around with, answer the door with, keep nearby where you sleep, that packs a huge punch but doesn't travel too far or through too many objects. There's a reason why handgun rounds are the way they are and rifle rounds are the way they are - different purposes. That's what I think anyway.
Unless you live in BFE, I don't think the AR (5.56mm) is a very good choice for home defense. Personally, I have a 12ga next to the bed, and my EDC 9mm on the nightstand. If it's all you have, I would use some sort of frangible ammo to reduce overpenetration. Just my .02 worth.
As far as a deer hunting rifle for the little people, maybe try a .30-30 or similar. Again, just my .02 worth.
As far as a deer hunting rifle for the little people, maybe try a .30-30 or similar. Again, just my .02 worth.
dakota.potts
New member
Simply because of the ammo loaded, I choose.223. I currently have mine loaded with 60 gr VMAX, which has also killed hogs just fine for me.
If one were to use 5.56mm, I would suggest staying away from M855 and other penetrator rounds in favor of heavier open tip ammo. Just my recommendation
If one were to use 5.56mm, I would suggest staying away from M855 and other penetrator rounds in favor of heavier open tip ammo. Just my recommendation
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Here is the deal on overpenetration.
If you live in a modern home constructed using 5/8” drywall, any projectile that meets the FBI criteria (pistol, shotgun or rifle) is going to go through multiple interior walls IF YOU MISS YOUR TARGET. Things behind those walls may be struck by a bullet.
Drywall is (at best) 5/8” of powdered gypsum backed with paper. If your self-defense load can’t penetrate 4 sheets of paper and 1.25” of powdered gypsum, it is unlikely to be able to physiologically stop a 150-200lb mammal unless you get that golden BB. The skull is not made of powdered gypsum and neither is the muscle, fat and bone surrounding the upper torso.
IF YOU HIT YOUR TARGET, most modern self-defense loads (again, pistol, shotgun, rifle) pose minimal risk of overpenetration. .223/5.56 can perform especially well in this role because it is a high velocity, low mass bullet. The key is whether the bullet breaks up or expands on striking the target. In fact, .223/5.56 in some bullets actually penetrates less than pistol or shotgun rounds because the small fragments/expanded bullet shed velocity very quickly and have little mass.
I’ve seen a case where a guy was shot from about 75 feet with Hornady 55gr GMX Barrier Blind ammo out of a 16” AR15. It hit him to the right of the spine and traveled left to right, exiting the shoulder after about 9-10” max. The bullet then bounced off a brick facing without even chipping it and was recovered fully expanded at the guy’s feet.
So to minimize penetration:
1) Use whatever firearm maximizes YOUR chance to land ALL the projectiles on your target.
2) Use quality defensive ammo that meets the FBI criteria.
3) Start thinking about your background and fields of fire now. Don’t wait until someone is in your house threatening you. Do a walk through of your house, points of entry and avenues of approach and think about what is behind those walls. If necessary, bookcases, big flatscreen TV’s, etc. can be used to reinforce walls.
If you live in a modern home constructed using 5/8” drywall, any projectile that meets the FBI criteria (pistol, shotgun or rifle) is going to go through multiple interior walls IF YOU MISS YOUR TARGET. Things behind those walls may be struck by a bullet.
Drywall is (at best) 5/8” of powdered gypsum backed with paper. If your self-defense load can’t penetrate 4 sheets of paper and 1.25” of powdered gypsum, it is unlikely to be able to physiologically stop a 150-200lb mammal unless you get that golden BB. The skull is not made of powdered gypsum and neither is the muscle, fat and bone surrounding the upper torso.
IF YOU HIT YOUR TARGET, most modern self-defense loads (again, pistol, shotgun, rifle) pose minimal risk of overpenetration. .223/5.56 can perform especially well in this role because it is a high velocity, low mass bullet. The key is whether the bullet breaks up or expands on striking the target. In fact, .223/5.56 in some bullets actually penetrates less than pistol or shotgun rounds because the small fragments/expanded bullet shed velocity very quickly and have little mass.
I’ve seen a case where a guy was shot from about 75 feet with Hornady 55gr GMX Barrier Blind ammo out of a 16” AR15. It hit him to the right of the spine and traveled left to right, exiting the shoulder after about 9-10” max. The bullet then bounced off a brick facing without even chipping it and was recovered fully expanded at the guy’s feet.
So to minimize penetration:
1) Use whatever firearm maximizes YOUR chance to land ALL the projectiles on your target.
2) Use quality defensive ammo that meets the FBI criteria.
3) Start thinking about your background and fields of fire now. Don’t wait until someone is in your house threatening you. Do a walk through of your house, points of entry and avenues of approach and think about what is behind those walls. If necessary, bookcases, big flatscreen TV’s, etc. can be used to reinforce walls.
imashooter
New member
Worked just fine for Zachary Peters in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. 3 dead home invaders.
JeepHammer
Moderator
There are some pretty big misconceptions about .223 Rem/5.56 NATO ammo,
And there are pretty big misconceptions about 'Self Defense' ammo vs. 'Target' and 'Hunting' ammo.
Common US made military cases have ZERO difference in cases since 2012.
ATK/Federal (Lake City) got the military specification for cases changed, cases are now identical in material & construction.
The ONLY hold over from military is crimped primers & bullets, and sealed primers & bullets.
(WCC used the old 5.56 case for an undetermined time, until supplies of case forming dies were expended)
Now, this doesn't exclude civilian cartridges from having crimped & sealed just like military ammo.
Keep in mind the US government ordered 3.2 BILLION rounds for Homeland Security and other government agencies, these are headstamped '.223' (civilian) but have a hodge-podge of crimped primers, sealed cases, might or might not be FMJ, soft points, hollow points or ballistic tips.
This SERIOUSLY blurs the line between .223/5.56 even further.
----
Now, there are WAY too many vairables for 'Home Security' to make any blanket decision on what to use.
Penetration/Over Penetration, Expansion, Fragmentation, Ricochet Potential, etc.
While the military has struggled with these questions, civilian police have done more studies to cut down on potential for injuries to non-hostiles.
I would advise you take anything the speciality marketers advertise with a grain of salt.
Advertisments RARELY live up to real world performance, and some claim on the package can actually work against you in court... (If you have to deploy a firearm, fully expect to wind up in criminal and/or civil court).
As for hunting, it's up to you.
All the ammo companies make rounds for small, medium, large & large/dangerous game, varmints, etc.,
Their recommendations are usually spot on since they have spent more than a century developing those rounds.
Deer size animals (large, thin skinned), I find just plain, century old soft points break bones and still expand where they do the most good.
I do have to introject here, the .223 Rem was NEVER intended for Deer size game animals.
The .223 Rem is a small diameter, light weight, high velocity VARMINT/Target/Small Game round.
No amount of 'Fiddling' is going to change this...
----
Not to change the subject, there is no bad guy in the world that doesn't know the sound of a pump shotgun racking a round in the chamber.
This alone will make most morons jump out of a third story window!
No shooting required!
The intimidation factor alone is off the charts.
Shotguns fire everything from slugs that will crack engine blocks to fine buckshot that won't penetrate two layers of drywall (at an angle, which is the situation in most home invasions).
Since home defense is done at very close ranges, the impact of a buck shot load will put down any human.
Easy to operate, nearly idiot proof, spread of shot reduces misses, and you don't have to explain to a jury why you used 'Super Duper Man Killer' rounds since buck shot is simply pellets, it's what you had in hand when someone broke in.
It's also not an 'Assault' weapon that is being front page news lately...
What I've seen in the news is 'Plucky' Home owner's stops home invasion with family shotgun, vs. 'Black Gun' death machine used in shooting...
----
Use what you want, the choice is yours, just laying out some of the consideration in the current political climate & potential issues with both types of firearms.
And there are pretty big misconceptions about 'Self Defense' ammo vs. 'Target' and 'Hunting' ammo.
Common US made military cases have ZERO difference in cases since 2012.
ATK/Federal (Lake City) got the military specification for cases changed, cases are now identical in material & construction.
The ONLY hold over from military is crimped primers & bullets, and sealed primers & bullets.
(WCC used the old 5.56 case for an undetermined time, until supplies of case forming dies were expended)
Now, this doesn't exclude civilian cartridges from having crimped & sealed just like military ammo.
Keep in mind the US government ordered 3.2 BILLION rounds for Homeland Security and other government agencies, these are headstamped '.223' (civilian) but have a hodge-podge of crimped primers, sealed cases, might or might not be FMJ, soft points, hollow points or ballistic tips.
This SERIOUSLY blurs the line between .223/5.56 even further.
----
Now, there are WAY too many vairables for 'Home Security' to make any blanket decision on what to use.
Penetration/Over Penetration, Expansion, Fragmentation, Ricochet Potential, etc.
While the military has struggled with these questions, civilian police have done more studies to cut down on potential for injuries to non-hostiles.
I would advise you take anything the speciality marketers advertise with a grain of salt.
Advertisments RARELY live up to real world performance, and some claim on the package can actually work against you in court... (If you have to deploy a firearm, fully expect to wind up in criminal and/or civil court).
As for hunting, it's up to you.
All the ammo companies make rounds for small, medium, large & large/dangerous game, varmints, etc.,
Their recommendations are usually spot on since they have spent more than a century developing those rounds.
Deer size animals (large, thin skinned), I find just plain, century old soft points break bones and still expand where they do the most good.
I do have to introject here, the .223 Rem was NEVER intended for Deer size game animals.
The .223 Rem is a small diameter, light weight, high velocity VARMINT/Target/Small Game round.
No amount of 'Fiddling' is going to change this...
----
Not to change the subject, there is no bad guy in the world that doesn't know the sound of a pump shotgun racking a round in the chamber.
This alone will make most morons jump out of a third story window!
No shooting required!
The intimidation factor alone is off the charts.
Shotguns fire everything from slugs that will crack engine blocks to fine buckshot that won't penetrate two layers of drywall (at an angle, which is the situation in most home invasions).
Since home defense is done at very close ranges, the impact of a buck shot load will put down any human.
Easy to operate, nearly idiot proof, spread of shot reduces misses, and you don't have to explain to a jury why you used 'Super Duper Man Killer' rounds since buck shot is simply pellets, it's what you had in hand when someone broke in.
It's also not an 'Assault' weapon that is being front page news lately...
What I've seen in the news is 'Plucky' Home owner's stops home invasion with family shotgun, vs. 'Black Gun' death machine used in shooting...
----
Use what you want, the choice is yours, just laying out some of the consideration in the current political climate & potential issues with both types of firearms.