.452 ACP leadball loads

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Chili Palmer

New member
Hi. I've been reading some here and like the forum. Should have joined and said hi before I had a serious question / dilemma but here I am. Any comments / advice would be appreciated.

I got into reloading this year. Primarily for .45ACP, then 9mm, then .223/5.56. I have my CCW and carry whenever possible. I have my own range and shoot as much as possible. I have a Kimber Pro Carry II and Sig C3 both .45ACP. My summer carry piece is a Kel-Tec PF-9, and when I wear more I carry my Kimber Pro Carry II. I bought the Kimber to use, I bought the Sig because it said Sig on it.

I ordered 2000 lead ball .452 230gr bullets from Missouri Bullet Co. I was ignorant to the online battle as to if you should use .451 or .452 for lead ball ACP loads. I loaded ~500. I didn't make the correlation... but I started shooting like crap. All over the target. WTH? The Kimber started failing to cycle (major leading in chamber) and my Sig shot all over the place. As time goes on my reloading bud at work (30+ years experience reloading fanatic and retired Army Major) said - you must use .451. OK so I buy a Lee .451 sizer. I've sized ~500 bullets but haven't loaded yet - too humid IMO and my range is outdoors next to a swamp and generally not that fun to shoot extensively in summer (horsefly sanctuary)

Sooo.. I have ~300 loaded cartridges with .452 (or however they came) bullets. I bought a Hornady Kinetic Bullet Puller and quickly learned it would take me about 300 minutes at least to unload 300 cartridges before I dealt with the mess of powder / humidity etc. As much as ammo costs it's a lot of waste to just toss but man what a chore I have if I unload them all. I can shoot them, but what's the use if they don't cycle or are very inaccurate. I can buy a forgiving .45 for twice the cost of the ammo if it were store bought.

Any advice on what I should do would be greatly appreciated. Now that I'm registered here I can chyme in when I have something useful to say.

Thanks a million

-CP
 
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kxkid

New member
Had the same problem with my Springfield range officer. The problem not enough powder. What is you load data.
 
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Chili Palmer

New member
This batch was/is 7.2gr 800x. I was shooting 4.5gr 700x before this batch (easier to get 800x than 700x). I don't remember as much leading but do believe I was shooting terrible.

BTW I typically shoot at 10 yards. I did a reset during my slump whilst scratching my head with some PMC FMJ loads (230gr) and shot good- as in what I am used to shooting.
 
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Chili Palmer

New member
I have a chrono (Army Major I referenced bought a new one and sold his old). I did a .1gr step up from 6.0gr to 8.0gr of 800x and settled on 7.2 as that was around 850fps.

Looking at my notes the times were not a straight line graph... seemed to increment normally starting at 600FPS for 6.0gr with a few slow shots then get slower after 7.5gr... as if there was more friction with more powder?
 
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kxkid

New member
Your problem is the 800x. I did the same as you when I started reloading 45 got some 800x. Learned real fast that it is too slow and does not burn all the way. Try switching to bullseye, titegroup, hp-38/w231 and you will notice a difference. I have shot .452 cowboy 200grn lead through my 1911 with no issues using the above mentioned powders
 
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rodfac

New member
Chilli, I've loaded for the .45 for right at 50 yrs now and never had a problem with .452" bullets...hard cast or soft, they've worked well in a dozen or so 1911's I've owned, or friends. By work well, I mean accuracy equaling 2" gps at 25 yds. Too, Missouri Bullets are my first choice when not casting my own. I particularly like their 200 gr LSWC's, but have shot over 500 of the round nose 230's as well.

For powders, Ken Waters, a noted gun scribe of the 70's to 90's, in his great column, Pet Loads, recommended 800x as a particularly good powder for cast bullets. He had great success with loads in the 6.5 to 7.0 gr span. I tried these with several of my Colts at the time and found that they shot well with his recommendations, but 800x was a PITA to meter through my RCBS Uniflow. For that reason, I dropped that powder and went with Bullseye, Unique or Winchester 231 (in reverse order of preference). Given one choice for a .45 ACP powder, I'd pick 231 or it's twin, HP38...for accuracy, and ease of metering precise loads, they'd be hard to beat. Accuracy through my Gold Cup, and more recently through Ruger''s excellent SR1911 gives me sub-2" gps at 25 yds, and single ragged holes from the ten yard line with a Weaver Stance.

With either 231 or HP38, my loads range from 5.0 to 5.5 gr with a 200 - 230 lead alloy bullet. Be careful seating your bullets properly, use the plunk test to see that they're not engaging the rifling or throat before the case mouth contacts the end of the chamber. With 200 gr LSWC's, I seat them so that just 1/32" of lead, full dia. shoulder, shows outside of the case mouth. That bit of lead shoulder cushions the chambering as I understand it, as the round is fed up the ramp. Seating deeper may allow the harder case mouth to catch on the ramp etc.

While Unique is as accurate as 231 or HP38, in my guns, it just doesn't meter as well. Bullseye, which meters very well and is a perennial favorite for all target loads in many calibers is also a good choice.

Hope you work it out, but those .452" bullets are not the problem. As to the leading issues, you may have to increase or decrease the velocity of your loads to overcome it. You can remove what's in your barrels now with a good scrubbing with a piece of Chore Boy wrapped around your bronze cleaning brush. Be sure it's the all copper variety, as some of other brands are copper plated steel...not good for a barrel in general, and death to the somewhat fragile crown.

One last thought. If you've been shooting jacketed bullets you'll need to scrub out your bores with a bronze brush and a good cleaning agent before switching to lead alloy. For best accuracy, lead needs to be shot through a cleaned barrel. Stubborn copper fouling can be removed with Hoppe's, Shooter's Choice, 7.62, or one of the abrasive cleaners: Remington or JB Bore Paste...all work well and it's a five minute job to get your barrel done.

HTH's Rod
 
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kxkid

New member
I had all kinds of problems with 800x. Would have feeding problems and a ton of unburt powder going everywhere.
 
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Chili Palmer

New member
Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate it. So 2 questions:

What to do with the 300 cartridges loaded with 800X?

Is 800X good powder for Shotguns (I think that's what its made for). If so I'll store it, if not who knows.

Thanks again

Chili
 
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Nathan

New member
Pull the bullets....dump the powder and reload with Titegroup, Universal, AA#5, Unique, etc.

The powder is not worth saving. Start the loading process at sizing with the primer punch removed.

You should be good to go.

All I shoot in my 45's is cast 230 RNBB at .452". Any idea on the Brinell hardness?
 
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Chili Palmer

New member
I've got plenty of 700X and HP38 (plenty for me with the availability means 2 14oz pounds each, and I thought I was going to use HP38 for 9mm).

So, pull the 800X cartridges. (over time... that is not a easy task. maybe 20 a day!) Can do, I have enough brass / bullets I dont need to hurry, but I wont toss them.

Verdict on 700X and/or HP38 for .45ACP? My access to powder is very limited.. at least it was 3 months ago... took a new job and has been my focus.


Guys, I really appreciate all the feedback!

-CP
 
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kxkid

New member
Hp-38 works great, the loads I did with it before I switched to bullseye I liked but had a little kick to it over the bullseye.
 
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Chili Palmer

New member
All 300 pulled! Much to the dismay of my wife! :eek::) (surprise, like i'm going to make her happy with one of my projects)

A few follow up questions.

800X seemed to get the big thumbs down. OK. I'll save it for shotgun loads.. I still have 700X. Is that OK? (availability of everything is not so great and hasn't gotten much better). I didn't notice big problems until I started with the 800X... but I do perhaps recall I was all over the paper with 700X ( that was my first few batches so no expectations)

I took ~100 bullets that were mixed in and covered with powder as I pulled them and decided to put them in the shaker to clean the powder off with cleaning media(was expecting shiny lead bullets). They came out DIRTY! Especially around the blue rubber lube groove, and solid patches elsewhere. So I did this and that, ended up shaking them in soapy water. They came out "grimy".

How clean do bullets need to be to load? I can hand clean each, but if it makes no difference no need. I think I know the answer ( :( ) The are now considered sub par salvaged shootable plinkers. I also enjoy cleaning my pieces thoroughly.. so if I just get more grime etc thats ok. Mainly a functionality question.

The Brass. If I resize it, I pop the primer. Or take the primer poke rod out... question is do they need resizing? (I'm thinking the expansion from the blast is what you resize for, not the expansion from the projectile)

Thanks again. Great place here!
 
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noylj

New member
1) I don't know if you buddy has ever loaded and fired lead bullets.
2) 800X is not your problem.
3) If you haven't slugged your barrel (so you know what your groove diameter is), you are flailing in the dark with cast lead bullets (lead ball bullets??)
A jacketed bullet performs best if it is the same diameter as the groove diameter of the barrel. A lead bullet performs best if it is AT LEAST 0.001" larger than the groove diameter of the barrel.
A lead bullet performs best if it is soft enough to obdurate (expand to fill the bore) from the pressure. A .45 Auto is very low pressure, so you need a soft alloy or you need an oversized hard alloy bullet. Since almost all commercial lead bullets are harder than needed, particularly for .45 Auto, you must ensure that a hard alloy is AT LEAST 0.001" larger than groove diameter and 0.002" is almost always best. You almost certainly started with a bullet too hard and not large enough to prevent gas-cutting.
If you know where the leading is, you can diagnose the problem. If that the very beginning of the rifling, then the bullet is too hard or too small and causing gas-cutting.
Since leading is easy to remove, why not TRY your rounds and report back. Note where the leading starts, if any.
 
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boondocker385

New member
I am relatively new to reloading but I find 700x makes for good target loads. It cycles my Glocks fine but I have to get up to midrange for my 1911s
 
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