.450 Marlin?
- Thread starter youngun
- Start date
450 is producing accuracy numbers that can only be dreamed of from a 45-70. Watched a guy one day put five in a 3/4 inch hole at 100 yards from a stock 450 guide Gun w/scout scope. Was shooting some handloads of 250 grain solid copper bullets. Accurate is the first comment someone makes when they shoot one.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Keep in mind that the 450 Marlin has 7 % less case capacity than the 45/70. I havent seen many 450 Marlins up here in Alaska at all, probably because the 45/70 will do everything that the 450 can do, and more, with equal accuracy.
HSM in Montana makes very reasonably priced hot 45/70 loads with the 350 grain Kodiak bullet, its what I reccommend for hunting with the 45/70.
HSM in Montana makes very reasonably priced hot 45/70 loads with the 350 grain Kodiak bullet, its what I reccommend for hunting with the 45/70.
Newly published loading manuals are shows 45-70 requiring a 24 inch barrel to match 450M's 18.5 inch performance. Even at level three! The 450M rifles have added heat treatments that allow for higher pressures than 45-70, that on top of the 450 case is stronger. It was written somewhere else that the only reason some don't like .450 is simply because its not a 45-70. I tend to agree.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Sorry Villain there is no added heat treatment for the 450 marlins. In addition,please enlighten me as to which manuals set forth the info that you are setting forth here.
If factory .450 is reproducing .45/70 hot loads, then it just begs the question: what can the .450 do when loaded hot?
It's like the "if you reload the .270 you can almost reach factory 7mm" line.
What about gun weight/handling for the two chamberings?
Any preference there? And felt recoil? Powder consumption?
It's like the "if you reload the .270 you can almost reach factory 7mm" line.
What about gun weight/handling for the two chamberings?
Any preference there? And felt recoil? Powder consumption?
Wildalaska. The two different heat treatment processes for the Marlin offerings has been well documented. Do a search or call the company yourself and you will find plenty answers. And take a look at new addition reloading manual like Barnes and write back.
youngun, the .450 Marlin in factory form is about max'ed out. Very small improvement when handloading.
youngun, the .450 Marlin in factory form is about max'ed out. Very small improvement when handloading.
The 450 Marlin guidegun this is a great rifle, I can attest to this because I have one and reload for it as well, and have used it in the field successfully, using Hornadys 350 gr interlock using H4198 at 50 gr max load compressed using CCI Mag Primers and Hornady brass 2280 fps, one inch spread at 100 yards, this was bench of course. I also worked up a load using the same Hornady 350gr bullet using Varget at 57 grs Compressed load as well, 1850 fps, this is a good moderate load for smaller game like black bear or deer, very accurate, half inch groups at 100 yards. note:compressed loads seem to be the most accurate, Hornady's factory loads are very good, the 350 Interlock hornady factory load is pushing 2100 fps shooting one inch groups bench-rested. I consider this my big game rifle for sure, this rifle can take down anything in North America if loaded properly, this is a short to medium range brush gun, at 150 yards using the factory load 0.0, not bad for a bigboar guidegun. this Marlin rifle is limited to its action, you want to really see some powerful hot loads go to the bolt action 450, now your talking even more power, it seems the 450 Marlin creates higher pressures and more fps with less powder than the 45/70 marlin guidegun. maybe due to chambering, I consider the 45/70 guidegun a equal to the 450 marlin, I think the brass is better for the 450 compared to the 45/70 brass, the case walls are thicker in the 450, in tern this means the 45/70 can accept more powder. the 45/70 cal is the closest to compare to the the 450 Marlin. Both are great calibers, the 45/70 been around for a long time and proved itself many times, and the 450 is the newer more modern cousin is also proving itself. Personally i thing the 450 Marlin is a great choice using factory loads at $21.00 bucks a box or reloading as well, try buying factory loads for the 45/70 that have equal power and you will have to spend double the money and have to get custom bullets from Garrett or Buffalo Boar, all other ammo revolve around trapdoor pressures, reloading the 45/70 there is much more loads for this gun than the 450 Marlin due to its time the caliber has been around. Good luck with your new rifle. Aim small hit small. RAMbo
P.S. Forgot to mention the 450 marlins hot loads kick like a mule
P.S. Forgot to mention the 450 marlins hot loads kick like a mule
Wildalaska
Moderator
Villain I can assure you, and everyone else, it is my uinderstanding that per the Marlin factory, there is no difference in the heat treatment of the two rifles.
I dont have the Barnes manual, care to post what you are asserting???
I dont have the Barnes manual, care to post what you are asserting???
What????
There's absolutely no difference in the accuracy potential of these two rounds.
Go visit the Marlin discussion board for multiple examples of submoa 45-70s.
I've shot a 3/4" group using Winchester factory 45-70 and a Thompson Encore rifle.
As for the power difference, I can think of at least three companies off the top of my head that sell 45-70 ammo that equals or surpasses the performance of the single load available for the 450 Marlin.
These two cartridges are ballistic twins. The practical differences are negligible. If you like 450 go for it. If you like 45-70, more power to you.
The only REAL difference I see is that there is only one commercial load available for the 450 Marlin while there is a wide variety of loadings for the 45-70.
Here's some ammo information. Note that Buffalobore Ammo loads a ballistic duplicate of the single available .450 Marlin load.
.450 Marlin
350 grains @ 2150fps Hornady
45-70
300 grains @ 1800fps Federal & Winchester Factory loads
350 grains @ 1800fps CorBon
350 grains @ 2000fps Hunting Shack Ammo
350 grains @ 2050fps PMC Factory Load
350 grains @ 2150 fps Buffalobore Ammunition
400 grains @ 1800 fps Hunting Shack Ammo
405 grains @ 1300fps Remington Factory
405 grains @ 1650fps CorBon
405 grains @ 2000 fps Buffalobore Ammunition
420 grains @ 1850fps Garrett Ammunition
430 grains @ 1925 fps Buffalobore Ammunition
500 grains @ 1625 fps Buffalobore Ammunition
540 grains @ 1550fps Garrett Ammunition
Ask Marlin if they recommend Buffalo Bore in their rifles. I believe there have been a few detonations attributed to this brand of ammunition when used in a Marlin rifle. Even Garrett is critical of the manufacture of 40,000+ CUP 45-70 ammunition and has stated that its not 100 percent reliable. That is why he manufactures ammunition in the 35000 CUP range.
If we are going to explore the realm of "my loads fired from my gun" or in laymen terms, not very safe. There is an article at sixguns.com about the 450 Marlin that has recipes like "Barnes 250 gr. X-Bullet over 58.5 grs of H4198 gives 41,700 psi and 2555 fps from a 24 inch barrel.", "In reloading the 450 I went to 2675 fps with H4198/61 grains and 4000 lbs (3973 actual number) using a 250 grain jacketed bullet I manufacture." and "Using Cast Performance bullets 335 grain WFN over 63 grains of ReL #7 and getting 2388 fps gives a startling 4240 plus lbs of muzzle punch! And this from a 18.5 inch barrel. With 55 grains of H322 under a 450 grain LBT this little rifle gave just under 1900 fps."
And then theres the fact that it cost $55 a box to get performance from a 45-70. Ammunition for the 450 is less than half that.
BTW TC Encore is not in the same league as a lever rifle.
If we are going to explore the realm of "my loads fired from my gun" or in laymen terms, not very safe. There is an article at sixguns.com about the 450 Marlin that has recipes like "Barnes 250 gr. X-Bullet over 58.5 grs of H4198 gives 41,700 psi and 2555 fps from a 24 inch barrel.", "In reloading the 450 I went to 2675 fps with H4198/61 grains and 4000 lbs (3973 actual number) using a 250 grain jacketed bullet I manufacture." and "Using Cast Performance bullets 335 grain WFN over 63 grains of ReL #7 and getting 2388 fps gives a startling 4240 plus lbs of muzzle punch! And this from a 18.5 inch barrel. With 55 grains of H322 under a 450 grain LBT this little rifle gave just under 1900 fps."
And then theres the fact that it cost $55 a box to get performance from a 45-70. Ammunition for the 450 is less than half that.
BTW TC Encore is not in the same league as a lever rifle.
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Wildalaska
Moderator
"Ask Marlin if they recommend Buffalo Bore in their rifles. I believe there have been a few detonations attributed to this brand of ammunition when used in a Marlin rifle."
Those detonations have been mag tube blow ups casued by, among other things, the hard cast broad meplat bullets used by Buffalo Bore (and coincidently by Garret).
'Even Garrett is critical of the manufacture of 40,000+ CUP 45-70 ammunition and has stated that its not 100 percent reliable. That is why he manufactures ammunition in the 35000 CUP range."
And of course, his critisism of 40, 000+ cup ammo has nothing to do with his own marketing goals does it?
"There is an article at sixguns.com about the 450 Marlin that has recipes like..."
Obviously, I would prefer to see loads cited from a reloading manual rather than some unnamed source on a web site.
"And then theres the fact that it cost $55 a box to get performance from a 45-70. Ammunition for the 450 is less than half that."
On the contrary, HSM ammunition is about $35 per box and PMC is even cheaper. Then, again, you have the issue of ONE factory load for the 450 Marlin and probably 20 plus for the 45/70, not counting the fact that you can rechamber a 45/70 for the 457 magnum and shoot even heavier loads, while still retaining the means to use the whole gamut of 45/70 loads.
Then again, no one here is badmouthing the 450 Marlin, its just not necessarily"better".
Those detonations have been mag tube blow ups casued by, among other things, the hard cast broad meplat bullets used by Buffalo Bore (and coincidently by Garret).
'Even Garrett is critical of the manufacture of 40,000+ CUP 45-70 ammunition and has stated that its not 100 percent reliable. That is why he manufactures ammunition in the 35000 CUP range."
And of course, his critisism of 40, 000+ cup ammo has nothing to do with his own marketing goals does it?
"There is an article at sixguns.com about the 450 Marlin that has recipes like..."
Obviously, I would prefer to see loads cited from a reloading manual rather than some unnamed source on a web site.
"And then theres the fact that it cost $55 a box to get performance from a 45-70. Ammunition for the 450 is less than half that."
On the contrary, HSM ammunition is about $35 per box and PMC is even cheaper. Then, again, you have the issue of ONE factory load for the 450 Marlin and probably 20 plus for the 45/70, not counting the fact that you can rechamber a 45/70 for the 457 magnum and shoot even heavier loads, while still retaining the means to use the whole gamut of 45/70 loads.
Then again, no one here is badmouthing the 450 Marlin, its just not necessarily"better".
The Buffalobore mag tube detonations happened quite a long time ago. Since then, Buffalobore has changed their brass to accept a smaller primer which eliminated the possibility of mag tube incidents.
Also, Buffalobore specifically lists the rifles which can safely fire their ammunition. It's not reasonable to assume that they would list rifles which are not safe with their ammunition. They are not a large business. A single injury suit would put them out of business.
As for reloading stories. The 45-70 has slightly larger case capacity which allows it to duplicate or exceed 450 Marlin ballistics--but at lower pressure. Put another way, anything the 450 can do, the 45-70 can do, with lower chamber pressures to boot.
There's nothing wrong with the .450 Marlin, but the facts don't bear out allegations that it's superior to the .45-70.
BTW, Corbon 45-70 ammo runs about $35 a box.
Also, Buffalobore specifically lists the rifles which can safely fire their ammunition. It's not reasonable to assume that they would list rifles which are not safe with their ammunition. They are not a large business. A single injury suit would put them out of business.
As for reloading stories. The 45-70 has slightly larger case capacity which allows it to duplicate or exceed 450 Marlin ballistics--but at lower pressure. Put another way, anything the 450 can do, the 45-70 can do, with lower chamber pressures to boot.
There's nothing wrong with the .450 Marlin, but the facts don't bear out allegations that it's superior to the .45-70.
BTW, Corbon 45-70 ammo runs about $35 a box.
Oh, the pressure!
JohnKSa speaks the truth.
Give me a .450 Marlin action that can handle the pressures of a case full of fast-burning pistol powder, and it'll blow the doors off the common .45-70 Government round.
On the flip side, give me a .45-70 Government action that can handle the above pressures, and it'll blow the doors off the common (?) .450 Marlin round.
The neat thing is that there are actions designed to handle pressures for the .45-70 that make the original government loadings pale in comparison. I run a Beartooth hardcast gas-checked 405gr bullet on top of a full case of Reloder 7, over the chronograph at 2000fps. I do it in a Ruger #1, with several sub 1" 100 yard groups as an added benefit. I give up NOTHING to the .450 Marlin. Well, maybe more rounds, and lesser recoil for the Marlin. I'm fixing that, with a Siamese Mauser bolt action project, and a later Kalashnikov/Saiga .45-70 project.
Commercial ammo loaders are somewhat hamstrung - there are too many weaker actions out there chambered for the .45-70 round. You can't sell a truck-stopping load at WalMart to a guy who wants to run a few rounds through his vintage Trapdoor Springfield. And that's where the .450 Marlin can strut it's stuff - it gets it's oomph from the extra pressures, but that's ok because all the commercial guns chambered in it are of recent metallurgy and manufacture.
Time will tell whether the .450 Marlin will endure like it's parent .45-70 round did.
JohnKSa speaks the truth.
Give me a .450 Marlin action that can handle the pressures of a case full of fast-burning pistol powder, and it'll blow the doors off the common .45-70 Government round.
On the flip side, give me a .45-70 Government action that can handle the above pressures, and it'll blow the doors off the common (?) .450 Marlin round.
The neat thing is that there are actions designed to handle pressures for the .45-70 that make the original government loadings pale in comparison. I run a Beartooth hardcast gas-checked 405gr bullet on top of a full case of Reloder 7, over the chronograph at 2000fps. I do it in a Ruger #1, with several sub 1" 100 yard groups as an added benefit. I give up NOTHING to the .450 Marlin. Well, maybe more rounds, and lesser recoil for the Marlin. I'm fixing that, with a Siamese Mauser bolt action project, and a later Kalashnikov/Saiga .45-70 project.
Commercial ammo loaders are somewhat hamstrung - there are too many weaker actions out there chambered for the .45-70 round. You can't sell a truck-stopping load at WalMart to a guy who wants to run a few rounds through his vintage Trapdoor Springfield. And that's where the .450 Marlin can strut it's stuff - it gets it's oomph from the extra pressures, but that's ok because all the commercial guns chambered in it are of recent metallurgy and manufacture.
Time will tell whether the .450 Marlin will endure like it's parent .45-70 round did.
Gewehr98 has trumped us all , which brings us back to my first question. Does Marlin recommend Buffalo Bore fired from their rifles? Think everyone knows the answer.
If you are going to shoot these 45-70 high pressure loads, use a action that can handle the pressure. I love my 45-70, but in a High Wall and not from some wimpy a$$ lever rifle.
Wildalaska, about prefer to see loads cited from a reloading manual rather than some unnamed source on a web site. Thats about as close to the pot calling the tea kettle black I've ever heard. There is NOT ONE reloading manual the publishes 40000 CUP load data for the Marlin action. It has all been word of mouth. In the case of the unnamed source that I wrote about, it was Paco Kelly when he initially wrote an article about 450 Marlin. I believe he is a highly respected writer in the gun community.
As a final note. PMC released their 45-70 ammunition one time and in very limited quantity. It has not been distributed since. Kind of redefines "limited availability". Might as well say it does not exist.
, which brings us back to my first question. Does Marlin recommend Buffalo Bore fired from their rifles? Think everyone knows the answer.If you are going to shoot these 45-70 high pressure loads, use a action that can handle the pressure. I love my 45-70, but in a High Wall and not from some wimpy a$$ lever rifle.
Wildalaska, about prefer to see loads cited from a reloading manual rather than some unnamed source on a web site. Thats about as close to the pot calling the tea kettle black I've ever heard. There is NOT ONE reloading manual the publishes 40000 CUP load data for the Marlin action. It has all been word of mouth. In the case of the unnamed source that I wrote about, it was Paco Kelly when he initially wrote an article about 450 Marlin. I believe he is a highly respected writer in the gun community.
As a final note. PMC released their 45-70 ammunition one time and in very limited quantity. It has not been distributed since. Kind of redefines "limited availability". Might as well say it does not exist.
Keith Rogan
New member
When all is said and done the .450 Marlin and the .45/70 are identical rounds.
I would go with the .45/70 for the following reasons:
1. Ammo availability - if you get off the plane in Chicken, Alaska to find that your ammo got off in Chicago, you need only go to the hardware store to buy more. Good luck finding .450 Marlin!
2. The .45/70 will do everything the .450 Marlin can do. If you want to "enhance" performance you can always buy the premium .45/70 ammo - and the hardware store in Chicken, Alaska probably has it!
3. I strongly suspect that for the above reasons, the .450 Marlin is going to go the way of a lot of other cartridges which don't really fill a niche. I wouldn't want to take a bet that .450 Marlin ammo will even be manufactured ten years from now.
4. And lastly, but perhaps most importantly - if you are shooting a 400 - 500 grain .45 caliber bullet you probably don't NEED the extra velocity anyway! A standard 405 grain load for the .45/70 will penetrate 3 or 4 feet of large critter - what more do you want?
I would go with the .45/70 for the following reasons:
1. Ammo availability - if you get off the plane in Chicken, Alaska to find that your ammo got off in Chicago, you need only go to the hardware store to buy more. Good luck finding .450 Marlin!
2. The .45/70 will do everything the .450 Marlin can do. If you want to "enhance" performance you can always buy the premium .45/70 ammo - and the hardware store in Chicken, Alaska probably has it!
3. I strongly suspect that for the above reasons, the .450 Marlin is going to go the way of a lot of other cartridges which don't really fill a niche. I wouldn't want to take a bet that .450 Marlin ammo will even be manufactured ten years from now.
4. And lastly, but perhaps most importantly - if you are shooting a 400 - 500 grain .45 caliber bullet you probably don't NEED the extra velocity anyway! A standard 405 grain load for the .45/70 will penetrate 3 or 4 feet of large critter - what more do you want?
False.
Irrelevant--your comment about accuracy was specifically about the cartridge, not about the gun.
False
False
Misleading.
Clearly Garrett isn't arguing that the action can't take the pressure, he's saying that the recoil impulse can cause magazine problems. He may be right, but if so, that would apply equally to the .450 Marlin which is only available in lever action rifles.
Like the wimpy a$$ lever rifle that is currently the only firearm chambered for the .450 Marlin?
Irrelevant. The fact remains that a major ammo company catalogs a load which performs and is priced comparably to the .450 Marlin load.
I think by now it's clear that you're grasping at straws, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Marlin gives Buffalo Bore ammo the same level of recommendation as they do to all the 450 Marlin loads in the reloading manuals and magazine articles you keep quoting.