45 super?

[OkieCruffler]

Just ordered a 45acp barrel for my Contender and plan to run some 45 super loads in it for giggles. I know it's not an auto but I figure if I'm looking for experience I'm more likely to find it here. Is anyone loading for this? Data is scarce and I'd like to have some ammo waiting when the barrel gets here.

 

[Sevens]

Well heck, why not venture right in to .460 Rowland?

With full case head support of a Contender, I can't see why you would need .460 Rowland brass.

 

[Will-j]

.45 SUPER

OKIE.... Don't know about anyone else, but I've been loading the Super for my Series 80 SS since reading DEAN GRINNELL in GUN WORLD in '88-'89[he started the SUPER]. The only loads I have worked with are the ones he developed in those articles before he became too ill to continue, at which point
he turned the project over to a fellow writer named Tom Ferguson (If I remember correctly)....Who then handed the project to Ace Hindlan in San Antonio Tx.
There were some modifications needed to be done on the Gov't. Mod. to function efficiently that shouldn't need to be done to your firearm, and pressure parameters shouldn't be a problem either.
My .45 functioned flawlessly after I made the mods and still do to date.
The loads are as listed in the original trials:
HORNADY 180 XTP/ 14.0 gr. HS-6/ Lg. Pistol primer..For 1400FPS+/-(5"brl);
HORNADY 200 XTP/ 13.0 Gr. HS-6/ Lg.Pistol primer..For 1300FPS+/-(" ")
HORNADY 230 XTP/ 12.0 Gr. HS-6/ Lg.Pistol primer For 1200FPS +/-( " ")
These loads were/are pretty much within 10-15 FPS of what was initially achieved. One other load I have is: Win 230 Gr. JHP/15.0 Gr. 2400 in TZZ(originally) cases... Now in STAR LINE +P OR SUPER Cases(Same.. according to S-L, IIRC)for a chrono'ed 1235+/- over my OEHLER 35P.
I don't shoot these loads much anymore due to medical issues [Severe Arthritis in the wrists] but they ALL have taken a collective 22 deer---out to 35 yds.+/- over the yrs.
These loads were safe in my '80 SS but it would be wise to check with Ace Hindman Jr, as for your firearm; You should get higher velocities and perhaps good accuracy as well.
GOOD LUCK with your Loading.
WILL.

I loaded the .460 Rowland too, in the '80SS. Fairly good accuracy with data from HODGDON's ANNUAL GUIDE, but not much better (for me) than the SUPER, so I stayed with the SUPER.
WILL.

 

[OkieCruffler]

Thanks Will, that's pretty much exactly what I was looking for. I figured HS-6 was the way to go but I'll be throwing a 255gr cast SWC. It's going to be an interesting project for sure. I hadn't even thought of the 460 data. Now I have more to look into. Got at least 4 weeks before I see the barrel so I got time.

 

[jtmckinney]

Back when I had a Blackhawk 45 convertible with I think a 5 1/2 inch barrel I worked up some loads using AA#9 and got some impressive velocity with 230 grain hard cast lead. Accuracy was also good. I used small pistol primers and never got any pressure signs or hard extraction.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I have lots of .45 supers. Use them in my 625 3 inch .45 acp.

Chronos out at 1000 fps with 230 gr. Cor-bons.

Deaf

 

[Crankgrinder]

Well heck, why not venture right in to .460 Rowland?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.

 

[Ruger45LC]

I've loaded a LOT of .45 Super, it's a fantastic cartridge but you're correct that there isn't much data for it. I've loaded from 185gr - 300gr with very good results.

Luckily I and others have some data:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1382239

The short of it is, it can replicate 460 Rowland, .45 ACP or anything in between.

 

[RickB]

I did some load development with Ramshot Enforcer, and it didn't go well.
A near-max load, 13-plus grains with a 230gr bullet, made only 970fps from a six-inch barrel.
I'm going to do the same, .2 grain steps with AA #7, and hope to get to at least 1100, and hopefully 1200.
The Enforcer loads were, not surprisingly, easy to shoot, and ejected the cases about four feet.

 

[TheFineLine]

I just ordered in some of Doubletap's 450 SMCs. Their version of the 45 super. It uses a small rifle primer in a cut down 308 case. I'm going to go out and crony some to see if I'm really getting 1400fps+.

I'm going to get F22 speeds out of this ole Cessna yet!

 

[Sevens]

I've been an active, hobbyist handloader for a long time now and get a -LOT- of enjoyment from it. Over those years, I have put a lot of faith and trust in to published data as a safeguard against recklessness and stupidity. So I have come to hold many different trusted sources very near and dear.

However, like most (or all, eventually?) I have also come to realize that there exists some extreme "salesmanship", shall we call it, when it comes to the velocities that are published right next to these trusted data sources. *EDIT: I'm speaking on the subject of handgun calibers only*

YMMV of course. Your chrono techniques matter, too. And for certain, the components you assemble and the platform you launch them from matter so, -so- much. We can all agree (I hope) that velocity figures included with trusted, published load data are generalities and it is no state secret that much or most velocity figures are inflated.

We don't typically actually see the numbers that are published with the data.

I say all of ^THAT^
just to say this:

The .460 Rowland loads I built based on Hodgdon published loads with Longshot will do what Hodgdon claims they will do! I started well under max and was cratering primers to the extreme so I switched to magnum primers and backed the load down.

Now if you know me, I don't put a lot of stock in to "reading primers" but the kind of damage I was doing to them was shaving primer cup material and getting fragments of it in to the firing pin channel, so I'm not talking about a little bump here.

My goal? Shootable ammo simply for the exercise of .460 Rowland. Fun-- no more and no less. Not hunting, not trying to shoot through an armored truck. Like 97% of what I do, it was all for enjoyment.

From a Remington R1 with a five-inch Clark .460 Rowland barrel and comp, I can run a Precision Delta 185gr JHP to a chrono'd 1,435 fps -- ten shot average, spitting out a 9.1 fps SD! And that is with 12.2 grains of Longshot, a mere two-tenths over the published start load.

If you scan over the load data, there is a -LOT- of room to go faster, harder, heavier and hotter than my little load. The .460 Rowland is serious business.

 

[Will-j]

.45 SUPER

OKIE... Sorry about the misprint on the HORNADY 180 XTP load; It should have been "185 Gr. XTP".. Since I load for the .44Mag, it gets confusing sometimes. The rest of the info is correct though. If you can't get any HS-6from HODGDON, You may try WW540. From past articles I've read, it's supposed to be HS-6's equivalent but it'd be best to check it out further. GOOD LUCK.
WILL
[If you have hogs in mind, the 230 XTP can't be beat, but the 255SWC might be limited to 1100-1200 FPS+/- given the ACP's capacity, even with the longer barrel.] I took 3 hogs with the 230's at about 20 yds. while deer hunting FT. BENNING in the early 90's('91-'92). Two dropped on the spot and the other one ran around in circles squealing for a minute or two, until he gave up. Dead behind the shoulder and hardly any lost meat.....Like Elmer said..."Ate right up to the bullet hole". All were in the 200-225 lb. range.

 

[kcub]

Will-j, was that Ace Hindman you were thinking of? He made me a super back in the 80's. He was in Kerrville then.

His son still sells kits.

 

[Will-j]

ACE

KCUb. You're correct....Classic example on my part(misspelling) due to post-cardio meds, and lack of sleep. Was going on memory of loading data. Will get back into it when fully recovered.
Matter-of-fact, it was Ace Jr. who advised me of the Super mods needed for the Gov't mod. and then I did them myself, and then added an additional shok-buff wafer between the recoil spring guide and the frame to eliminate ALL metal-to-metal-contact felt recoil.(needed to ream the hole in the wafer to fit around the weld bump on the guide). After 1200+/- rds.(mixed- std. hardball, +P, and Super.[original Super data was CLOSE to what .460 ROWLAND ballistics is now]) it was still functioning without fail. One thing Ace Jr. explained to me to look out for... was/is the barrels composition;(some brands other than COLT have a two-piece barrel---When viewed closely from the chamber end, you can see the seam between the chamber and the lugs on the outside surface. These barrels are supposedly not as strong as one-piece barrels used for the SUPER conversions.
And you're also correct RE: Kerrville is so close to San Antonio, I just used S.A. as a reference. STAY SHARP..
WILL

 

[OkieCruffler]

After a bit of research, I'm not sure the Rowland is doable. 40KCUPs of pressure pushing a .45 sized case against the face of the Contender is getting very warm. Still, I think I can creep right up to the light loads as a ceiling. Truthfully most of of my shooting will be a 200 gr cast SWC in front of about 5gr of Bullseye. Even that light load will take down a 110 pound winter pig from a 1911. Guess how I know?. But sometimes a normal cartridge becomes a bit of a wildcat in the Contender platform and you just have to see what can be done. You should see the things I did with the 32-20. And my little 30 luger barrel with 165gr SP's was just too fun...

 

[Tucker 1371]

What is needed to make a .45 ACP 1911 run .45 Super? I know practically nothing about this cartridge.

 

[OkieCruffler]

I'm no expert on the 1911, only have one and it's a cheapie. But from what I understand its just a recoil buffer and a 30# recoil spring. And you might want to start with a good quality barrel. I love my cute little High Standard but I wouldn't use it for a Super conversion. The 460 conversion is a whole different beast.

 

[RickB]

30# recoil spring "conversion"; I would recommend not going that route.

 

[kcub]

I could be misremembering but I recall Gary Hindman saying the HK MK23 was 45 super good to go, but no mention of the 45 USP.

Best hurry, he's up into his 80's.

 

[Will-j]

.45 SUPER

OKIE...Think about the rifle cartridges chambered in the Contenders with .45Head sizes (.308; -06; .243; 7-.08; ETC.) All these rounds exceed the pressure level of the SUPER. In fact, Dean Grennell took into consideration the 40,000-45,000 PSI level of the 10MM AUTO in the GOV'T frame and thought "Why the hell not a .45"? Hence.....the birth of the SUPER. Your Contender will take ANYTHING the SUPER will ever put out.....Fear not.

RICK...The 30# recoil spring might be considered a bit much, and perhaps one could probably get by with a 25# +/- spring but the only drawback is the initial cycling of the slide by hand. And the heavy poundage definitely keeps the slide/frame battering down to a minimum, even with the SHOK-BUFF kit.

TUCKER.... The main thing to consider [aside from the model of firearm used], is the barrel. You need the one-piece barrel as found in the COLTs to begin with, and you can see the seam around the chamber in the lesser-quality barrels found in some clones, where a sleeve has been soldered to the barrel around the chamber end. The one-piece barrel is stronger. Also, the chamber needs to fully support the case. Otherwise, you'll have the cases bulge at the edge of the feed ramp, depending the cases used. Some cases have more inner support at the case head. Sometimes drastic events will occur if the case is not fully supported.
Secondly, though not in order if importance, but necessary none-the-less, are:
Shorten the firing pin up to .050" and install a heavy-duty firing pin spring to keep the firing pin from "lagging". Once the pin strikes the primer, it needs to retract as quickly as possible into the slide, This will prevent the barrel/ face of the slide from dragging the case head against the pin's nose and the indention in the primer hanging up on the pin's nose...thereby delaying the slide's action and the cycling sequence.( The barrel slides downward as the slide retracts-hanging up the case on the firing pin and breech-face) resulting in failure to extract/eject. And shape the firing pin nose with a flatter profile-less rounded. This will add a level of prevention of piercing the primer, due to the heavier pin pressure.
An extra heavy MAIN SPRING is needed to give the hammer/ firing pin enough energy to strike the primer with enough force to ignite it. I shortened my firing pin enough so that it does not protrude through the slide's breech face when the hammer is lowered....eliminating contact with the primer unless deliberately cocked and fired. [My preference] but does not interfere with the function, and keeps unnecessary tension/compression off the main spring.
Last, but not at all in the least, is the installation of a SHOK-BUFF kit. Along with the neoprene buffer between the recoil spring and the 'saddle' which fits up onto and touches the bottom of the barrel, I put a buffer in back of the guide between the guide and the frame--eliminating all felt recoil from metal-to metal contact upon cycling of the slide. The hole needs to be reamed out to fit over the weld-bump where the guide rod attaches to the rear flange(saddle); I used a case prep tool, (the counter-sink end), to bevel the front edge of the hole, just enough to fit over the bump and lay flat against the rear of the guide. Again, my preference, and after firing over 1500 rds.+/- of mixed Hardball and SUPER rds., I've had no failures to either feed or extract. AND, it sleeps under my pillow, loaded with 185gr, XTPs.


I'm not a gunsmith, nor do I profess to be....but I conferred with Ace Sr. and again with Ace Jr. as I worked on the COLT and did the mods myself, even after being offered a L E discount. Anyone with hands-on knowledge of handguns can do the mods as long as you take care and pay attention to detail, and don't hesitate to ask for guidance if you feel you need it. GOOD LUCK.
WILL