45 Super in the HK USP

[Kodiac]

I have yet to do this. I dont know any one who has either. I am told it can be done. HK says they would rather you didn't. The big HK looks and feels as if it could handle it easily should you fire them once in awhile.
PROS - CONS people?

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Kodiac
Kenetic Defense Institute
kodiac@hotbot.com

 

[Morgan]

The Triton web page, www.triton-ammo.com , says yes.

Quote:

Question: Can I use .45 Super ammunition in my HK USP?

Answer: We have tested a factory stock HK USP with .45 Super ammunition with excellent results. However, to minimize wear it is recommended that the recoil springs be changed every 3,000 rounds.

-Also:

.45 SUPER®
Versatility and Power for .45 Autos

The .45 Super was originally the brainchild of Dean Grennell, longtime managing editor of Gun World magazine. His project started as an exploration of the limitations of the .45 ACP. Specifically the 45 ACP case. The idea was to boost the performance levels of the 45 ACP without overstressing the gun. He based the first versions of the .45 Super on .45 Winchester Magnum and .451 Detonics cases trimmed to .45 ACP length. These stronger cases allowed for greater levels of performance, but to realize their full potential, a stronger gun was called for. Grennell and Tom Ferguson, a regular columnist for Gun World, took this concept to the late Ace Hindman, a well-respected Texas gunsmith. Hindman developed a method of converting 1911-type .45 autos to safely handle the .45 Super cartridge, and perfected the ammunition. Today, his son, Garey, operates Ace Custom .45's, offering .45 Super conversions for existing .45 autos and complete gun packages.

Using brass cartridge cases manufactured to .45 Super dimensions, Triton is proud to offer a complete line of .45 Super ammunition. The .45 Super delivers more energy on target than any other defensive auto pistol cartridge. The .45 Super conversion is the ultimate choice for .45 ACP fans offering the flexibility of using both .45 Super ammunition and .45 ACP without swapping any parts.

Now available! Springfield Armory is now producing 1911 style autos in .45 Super.

The .45 Super conversions and Gunsmith Kit Conversion Kits are currently offered for the Colt 1911 style Browning Link System (Colt, Para-Ordnance, Springfield Armory, AMT, Auto-Ordnance, etc.) and the Smith & Wesson line of .45 Autos (5" & 4 1/4" models). For more information call Ace Custom 45’s at: (210) 257-4290, or write them at:
1880 1/2 Upper Turtle
Creek, Kerrville, TX 78028

Unprimed .45 Super brass is available from Starline Brass Company. It comes in 500 and 1,000 piece paks. Standard .45 Auto dies are utilized for the .45 Super cartridge. For more information call Starline at: (816) 827-6640, or write them at: 1300 West
Henry St., Sedalia, MO 65301.

Sounds pretty cool, and it sounds like the USP45/F could handle without a problem. It says nothing of the compact, though.

[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited 12-31-98).]

 

[BrokenArrow]

Triton says full size OK, compact no way.

HK says you are on your own; it will void your warranty. Of course, so will reloads.

 

[ATM]

General question -

I remember reading that the 45 Super was a different case, external dimensions than the 45ACP, at least I thought I had read that. However this discussion leads me to believe that they are identical cases. Can someone clarify the differences, if any, for me?

Thanks

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Freedom is not Free

 

[David]

Kodiak, I have been doing it for about three weeks or so. No problems with the H&K. For an extra margin of safety, I will probably put a 24 lb. spring in the H&K.

My Glock 21 had to be upgraded with a Bar-Sto and a 24 lb. spring to shoot it. Occasionally, they get x-rayed by a friend to check for stress cracks, just in case.
I am currently only shooting the 230 gr. tactical loads. Very accurate, and so far, so good.
The external dimensions are the same. Inside, a thicker web, sturdier brass.

Don't even think about putting into an unmodified 1911, or a Sig. Yes, it voids any warranties and, of course, your gun will wear out sooner. How soon, I don't know yet.
I guess I'll find out. Besides, Once, you master it, it doesn't mean you have to practice with full bore loads all the time to be proficient.

If you only shot .45 Super, and your Glock or H&K only gives you 80,000 or 100,000 rounds service, it could be worth it. Compacts are not recommended regardless of spring ratings.

I just wish it had some "street experience". Look at the benefits. You have a very powerful (up to ~700 ftlbs. muzzle), big bore cartridge, that IS controllable, in a standard size pistol. It's promising.

[This message has been edited by DAVID (edited 01-02-99).]

[This message has been edited by DAVID (edited 01-02-99).]

[This message has been edited by DAVID (edited 01-02-99).]

 

[dairycreek]

I talked with Garey Hindman who is the "guru" of the 45 super conversion. The size of the 45 Super cartridge and the 45 ACP are exactly the same. You can fire both in a suitable pistol. Hindman contends that a properly prepared 45 Super needs to have a stronger extractor than any out of the box 45's now have. We did not talk specifically about the HK.

 

[Walt Welch]

NO NO NO !!! The .45 ACP and .45 Super are NOT the same case. Read the above post and you will see why; initially, the cases were made from very high pressure .45 caliber rounds. These have much thicker brass than .45 ACP.

EXTERNAL dimensions are the same, but the case volume is considerably different.

True: every .45 Super will fire .45 ACP without adjustment. False: any .45 ACP can fire .45 Super.
Working pressures are about 20K cup/psi for .45 ACP, 22K for .45 ACP +P, and 28K for .45 Super. Walt

 

[Bob Thompson]

I agree with all posts above and can add this to emphesize Walts post. I have put a number of 45 Super rounds through my full size H&K after handloading with Starlines Super brass and it will reach maximum pressure much sooner with any given powder due to smaller case capacity. I checked this brass against regular 45 brass from various mfg's and the
Starline brass is about 4 to 5 tenths of a grain less in volumn. I also could not reach maximum velocity with Universal Clays without bulgding cases using 185 grain HTP's.I managed about 1200 fps on my chronograph.Can anybody guess why. The H&K chamber seems a little loose but so do the rest of my 45 autos. Could this be the pressure curve deal. What else might I be missing? Thanks much,Bob

 

[Dennis]

Just spoke with the folks at
Ace Custom
1880 1/2 Turtle Creek
Kerrville, TX 78028
(Just as Morgan listed)

However, we have had a series of area code changes. The "new" phone for Ace Custom is:

830/257-4290 (area code is 830 rather than 210).

Seem like nice folks, all visitors welcome.
.45 Super sounds "super" to me!

 

[Walt Welch]

The other stock handgun capable of handling the .45 Super is the 625 S&W revolver. Now, imagine a rimmed case, longer, say around .44 Mag length, with thick brass that would withstand about 40K psi.,roughly the .44 Mag working pressure........Now THAT would be a great cartridge. Wistfully hoping.. Walt

 

[Spectre]

I have heard that Dean Grennell actually pushed a 185-grain round up to 1500 fps! He said that handloaders were always going to "push the envelope", which is why Triton does not sell cartridges that are that hot. For those who do not know, Triton's "tactical" .45 Super is just a step up from .45+P.

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[Mikie]

I own a USP40C and really like the gun. I looked at a USP45 fullsize a few weeks ago and was tempted to buy it. Reading this post has me really interested just to be able to try out the 45 Super cartridge. What kind of velocity and muzzle energy can you expect from this round?
Is there factory ammo readily available that isn't just 45 +P? For that matter what kind of velocity and muzzle energy falls into the +P rating?

 

[old biker]

Yo WALT!! Are you the one that's responsable for starting the rumor about .45LC brass being weak?? Let me be the first ta drag ya into the 20th century. Dick Casull pioneered 60,000(sixty thousand pound) pressures with triplex loadings years ago. John Linebough and Hamilton Bowen, along with guys like Gallager, Clements, Phillips and Rogers and myself have been cranking out five(5) shooters in the Rugers for sometime now. It ai'nt the brass, it's the cylinder and frame. The current Redhawk in .45LC can easily handle 40,000(been there, done that) The Vaquarro from Ruger will handle 30-35000 no problem. I LOVE the BIG BORES(my wrist does'nt)

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AFFA

 

[olegunftr]

Walt, PSI is one measurement, CUP is another. They are not equal and cannot be converted one to another. They are not interchangeable!!! Danger Will Robenson!!!

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Vinny

 

[Walt Welch]

Olgunftr; I can't believe I said that cup and psi were identical. They were supposed to be roughly comparable, but with modern piezoelectric guages testing ammunition in real psi., the copper crusher data has been found, in some instances to be wrong. Winchester, for one, dramatically changed some loads after retesting with piezoelectric methodology.

This can't be emphasized enough, and I apologize for misleading readers.

One comment about the .45 Super; the developer was using some handloads that seemed perfectly safe in his 1911 were pressure tested by the late Bruce Hodgdon, and found to be generating near 50,000 something. Probably cup, considering the time the data were compiled.

At any rate, the developer went on to say (BTW this info is in the American Rifleman after the issue quoted from above; as I recall the original .45 Super issue was Dec 1997) that the first sign of excessive pressure in the 1911 was a destroyed gun.

Old Biker: so you think the .45 Colt cartridge case can handle magnum pressures? Good, fine, that is great. But why, then, do the magnum cartridges from Casull and Linebaugh et. al. have much stronger brass?
After all, if the standard .45 Colt cartridge case could handle the high pressure, it would be contraproductive to use thicker brass, as this would decrease case capacity.

I am not saying that you haven't loaded .45 Colt brass to high pressures without any problems. Yet. I am just saying if I see someone firing a Ruger SA that makes a loud report and generates a lot of recoil, I am going to get as far away as I can from him on the firing line.

Walt Welch, NRA Life Member, reloader since 1955.

 

[old biker]

Walt, I suggest you visit with John Linebough or Hamilton Bowen. Maybe Ross Siefried also. Brass designed for high pressure would be the .454, but not the .475 Linebough. It's parent case is the antiqated 45-70. ya really oughta visit www.earp.com or www.sixgunner.com The Rugers can easily handle 35,000cup. Even the vaquaro. Jim Taylor is the President of the Shootists, a club with members like John Linebough, Hamilton Bowen, etc. Come and play with the big boys

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AFFA

 

[Mikie]

Reloading information for the .45 Super is scarce(non-existent?) Alliant lists 45 ACP and 45 ACP +P. Winchester justs lists standard 45 ACP. Does anyone know where to get reloading info on the 45 Super? As was pointed out earlier the 45 Super brass has less volume than std ACP so pressure measurements would be very good to know. Starline is the source for brass and the same dies for 45 ACP will work for Super but without recipes I feel this is risky to workup on your own.

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