45 Colt pressures...

[std7mag]

I'm looking at getting a Rossi 92 Carbine in 45 Colt.
While looking at the load data, and some online postings, I had some questions that I'm hoping someone could help me with.

1) While it lists the bullet as 0.454", would bullets for 45ACP work, aka 0.451" jacketed hollow point of 185-230gr., or 0.452" LSWC in the 200 gr. range??

2) Someone had posted that since the action on the Rossi is also made for 44Mag, that you could load the 45 Colt to those pressures. (Personally I'm not for loading to those pressures, but curious minds want to know, I fully intend to keep under the 14,000 psi max for the 45 Colt.) I was under the impression that the max pressures had as much to do with the casing, as the gun/chamber.

Thanks for your wisdom!!
Std7mag

 

[black mamba]

Just remember that since the 45 is larger in diameter than the 44, more metal is removed from the chamber and barrel, so it CANNOT take the same pressures that the 44 magnum can. And sometimes actions are heat-treated differently for the magnums than for a standard chambering, so that needs to be confirmed as well.

 

[Kosh75287]

I've all but written a Master's Thesis on the subject of the prudence of loading the .45 Colt beyond SAAMI spec, and I'm by no means the lone voice in wilderness concerning it. The fact that two powder vendors offer data in excess of the 14,000 psi SAAMI max (although my FAVORITE powder manufacturer flat refuses) tells me that exceeding it will not instantly turn one's firearm into a grenade.

I think the highest pressure to which Hodgdon & Accurate load the .45 Colt is 30,000 psi. I suspect that the Rossi M1892 action, made of modern steel, may be capable of twice that (though I'M not gonna confirm it!). When I tried to "soup-up" my Rossi, I'd hoped to approach maximum loads in it, but my shoulder kept telling me that I'm too darned old to try such things. As I am fond to say, usually the part of the shooter that must bear the recoil will give up before the weapon does.

Alliant lists 15.4/2400/250LSWC as a maximum load (< 14,000 psi) in a revolver chambered for .45 Colt, with a 5.5" barrel. They list a muzzle velocity of 972 f/s. I've NEVER been able to get 2400 to burn completely in a 6" barrel, and only rarely in a 7.5" barrel. This tells me that the load I mentioned may continue to burn down the length of a carbine's barrel, potentially increasing the muzzle velocity of the projectile somewhat over what might be obtained in even a very long-barreled handgun.

The black-powder loaded .44-40 WCF carbine launched 200gr. projectiles at just under 1200 f/s, depending on barrel length. The cartridge/rifle combination harvested more deer and other game than we'll likely ever tabulate. If a .45 Colt carbine can launch a 25% heavier projectile anywhere within 10% of the .44-40's velocity, its effect on the receiving end should be substantial, without being painful to shoot nor hard on the firearm.

Look up Elmer Keith's "Sixguns" excerpt in which he lists some of his revolver cartridge loads, and you'll see that he went WELL over SAAMI spec on many of them, in older firearms made of "best at the time" steels. THESE days, I believe it is GENERALLY safe to MODESTLY increase the chamber pressure of such loads in any MODERN firearm originally chambered for the cartridge, EXCEPT THE CONVERSION REVOLVERS. I HAVE loaded my carbine up to just under "Elmer Keith" pressure territory, with no ill effects to me or the gun, and obtained some very nice performance on the other end.

Be prudent, be thorough, be unafraid to ask others, and be watchful for pressure signs. I suspect you'll be fine.

Okay, end of rant...

 

[Slamfire]

I've all but written a Master's Thesis on the subject of the prudence of loading the .45 Colt beyond SAAMI spec, and I'm by no means the lone voice in wilderness concerning it. The fact that two powder vendors offer data in excess of the 14,000 psi SAAMI max (although my FAVORITE powder manufacturer flat refuses) tells me that exceeding it will not instantly turn one's firearm into a grenade.

I think the highest pressure to which Hodgdon & Accurate load the .45 Colt is 30,000 psi. I suspect that the Rossi M1892 action, made of modern steel, may be capable of twice that (though I'M not gonna confirm it!). When I tried to "soup-up" my Rossi, I'd hoped to approach maximum loads in it, but my shoulder kept telling me that I'm too darned old to try such things. As I am fond to say, usually the part of the shooter that must bear the recoil will give up before the weapon does.

Look up Elmer Keith's "Sixguns" excerpt in which he lists some of his revolver cartridge loads, and you'll see that he went WELL over SAAMI spec on many of them, in older firearms made of "best at the time" steels. THESE days, I believe it is GENERALLY safe to MODESTLY increase the chamber pressure of such loads in any MODERN firearm originally chambered for the cartridge, EXCEPT THE CONVERSION REVOLVERS. I HAVE loaded my carbine up to just under "Elmer Keith" pressure territory, with no ill effects to me or the gun, and obtained some very nice performance on the other end.

I don't disagree with anything you have said. SAAMI specs are written so that factory ammunition can be used in any firearm chambered for that cartridge. There are some very old firearms out there, made of inferior materials, on the American market. European law weeds out old junk guns out of the system due to their proof laws. You can't sell a firearm to someone without the thing going through a proof test. Old guns that fail, are scrapped at the proof house. This is one of the reasons why European ammunition, such as Norma, can be higher pressure that then ammunition made in the USA.

Given modern steels, the same action can handle more pressure without a structural failure. Old actions, that is pre 1920 actions, were all made from plain carbon steels, some of which were not even heat treated. Modern alloy steels provide at least a 20% higher yield strength and, more importantly, orders of magnitude better fatigue lifetimes. Many old actions have already been through one lifetime of use, so the risk of fatigue failure is high. The action is there to support the case and keep the case from rupturing. It is all about case support though at some pressure level the case head will fail, but even then, modern brass has strong case heads, much more than old balloon head cases.

One problem that I have with old firearms is the design limits are not clear. Modern firearms, the design limits can be inferred, but it would take a finite element model to figure out just when the structure fails on old historical actions. Many of them were not so much designed, as evolved. Safety factors between elements are likely to be chaotic.

 

[Kosh75287]

Thanks, SLAMFIRE.

I SHOULD have defined what I meant by MODERN firearms (thought I did). By "modern" I mean "manufactured after the end of WWII". This doesn't completely dismiss the chaos from the safety factors, but by 1945, a lot of design evolution had come to the fore.

 

[Slamfire]

I SHOULD have defined what I meant by MODERN firearms (thought I did). By "modern" I mean "manufactured after the end of WWII". This doesn't completely dismiss the chaos from the safety factors, but by 1945, a lot of design evolution had come to the fore.

I am a huge fan of the M1898 Mauser, just not of vintage Mausers, especially those made prior to 1920. The date is sort of arbitrary based on my evaluation of industrial technology, gotten through the review of period trade magazines. I do think there are some outstanding old action designs, such as the M1886 Winchester, Martini Henry, and some other vintage single actions, but the materials period rifles were made out of give me the willies.

Post WW2, there are some really outstanding actions made of modern materials. The Rem 700 is very strong and safe and so is the Savage M110.

I have a Marlin M1894 and M336, these actions are limited in strength by the rear locking lugs, but overall, the designs are good. The bolt in these things will bow and bend under load, much more flexible than a front locking mechanism. In developing loads for my M336, the thing only shot well with ammunition at factory velocities. Hotter ammunition also caused sticky extraction so there was not much point in trying to hot rod the cartridge.

 

[ligonierbill]

Don't worry about the brass. Modern .45 Colt brass is not your limiting factor. But you don't want to load to .44 Mag pressures, and there is no reason to do so. Look up the "Ruger only" loads in your manuals. I am loading a Ruger Blackhawk, not a rifle, but the maximum loads published by Hodgdon for their H110 powder are palm stinging, knuckle busting monsters. I back off them for the sake of my hand, not my pistol. Somewhere between "cowboy" and "yowza" you should find a load that will punch impressive holes in things out to 100 yards or so.

 

[Kosh75287]

I'm not a big fan of H110/W296, but there's no denying that it'll make large capacity revolver cartridges stand up and be noticed. I just don't like the 3% safety margin in which I must work up the loads.
I've used IMR4227, which gives me the 10% charge weight margin, in place of H110 quite a bit. I don't think I've sacrificed a lot in the process.

Although I'm unhappy with Alliant for not providing loading data for .45 Colt with chamber pressures exceeding 14,000 psi, I do like using 2400 for the load work-up. Mercifully, someone else did Alliant's job FOR them, many years ago, and very usable data are available.

I agree that one needn't push the .45 Colt as hard as a .44 Magnum to get very good performance from it. Indeed, it's part of the reason my Ruger Redhawk is chambered for .45 Colt, not .44 Magnum. But I DO tire of the hystrionics in which certain elements of the firearms industry engage at the mention of pushing the .45 Colt over its SAAMI max pressure.

Ooops... I feel a rant coming on... Time for bed.

BTW, I don't think I've ever reloaded other than .452" projectiles in my Carbine, and accuracy was anywhere from adequate to startlingly good.

 

[Lee S. Forsberg]

You might consider Reloader #7 in your rifle. I've used it in T/C loads.

 

[Hunter Customs]

In my revolvers chambered for the 45 Colt I'm shooting 12grs of HS6 topped off with a 270 gr WFN cast bullet, this would be considered a tier 2 load( around 21000 PSI ) .
Two of my 4 revolvers I shoot this load in are Cimarron/Uberti guns; one of these has over 10,000 rounds, I've had nary a problem.
This load from a 5.5 inch barrel clocks at 1100 fps, it may be a load to consider for your Rossi 92.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter

 

[g.willikers]

No one seems to have addressed the second question of using smaller diameter .45 ACP bullets for .45 Colt.
.451 jacketed and .452 lead bullets are a lot smaller than .454 than it might sound.
But the results can depend on more than just the sizing.
Like the actual barrel dimensions, as determined by slugging it.
And the hardness of the lead bullets, and the thickness of the jackets, for examples.
As well as the type and amount of powder used.
By the time you experiment and try to figure out suitable ways to load those smaller bullets, and the waste of components and time, might as well just buy the correct bullets for the rounds.
Hope this didn't add to the confusion.

 

[std7mag]

Thank you all for your responses.
As I mentioned earlier, I'm not planning on going over the 14,000 PSI limit. Just was curious.

I have about 500 of the Hornady 200gr. LSWC in 0.452" here, so I will probably try them(whenever I get the rifle ).

Was just wondering about the jacketed hollow points in 0.451".

Again, thanks all for the response!!

Std7mag

 

[Kosh75287]

Sorry about the ranting digression. I should have left it at: "IF you decide to exceed 14,000 psi, you can safely do it in the carbine."

I've never tried Reloder 7 in .45 Colt, but I don't know why it would NOT work. I HAVE used 2400 and 4227 quite a bit, and they work well, in revolver and rifle alike. At some point, you may desire a load that works in firearms. They both prefer being pushed over 14,000 psi, but perfectly usable loads not exceeding that threshold may be made with them.

The .451/.452" vs. .454" question hasn't presented itself, but my Rossi shot very well with .452" everything, especially 200gr. & 250gr RNFP, and the 225gr Lee TC, intended for use in .45 ACP.

Medium-burning powders like Unique and Herco are very much at home in .45 Colt. The ballistic advantage in a carbine barrel will be lessened, but by no means absent.

 

[1100 tac]

The Rossi '92 is one of the strongest lever actions made today. It is also chambered in 454 Casull. Hot 45 Colt loads are nothing special to it.

 

[David Ozlo]

I just double checked the website, and Starline brass pressure checks 44 mag and 45 colt to the same pressure levels.
I only use Starline for +P. I figure it's safer and will last longer for more reloads.

 

[Kosh75287]

Not sure, but there may be a difference in heat treating between the .454 Casull carbines vs. .45 Colt Carbines. Either way, they'll generally take more punishment than the shooters' shoulders will. Just don't go trying to turn a .45 Colt carbine into a .45-110 Sharps.

 

[Clark]

Not sure, but there may be a difference in heat treating between the .454 Casull carbines vs. .45 Colt Carbines. Either way, they'll generally take more punishment than the shooters' shoulders will.

45 Colt pressure and recoil experiences
1) Uberti Cattleman 45C revolvers 0.044" thick chamber wall, I run at 22 kps 24 gr H110 250 gr XTP, it is all the recoil I would want, and more.
2) Ruger Blackhawk 45C 0.059" thick chamber wall, Speer says 25kpsi, but QL thinks their load is 32kpsi. I fired one shot at 22kpsi 10 years ago and have not shot it since. The recoil cut my hand.
3) Smith and Wesson 25 revolvers 0.063" thick chamber walls, Clark Custom guns runs 460 Rowland in them at 39 kcup, but QL thinks it is 57kpsi, I have been running QL 26kpsi, and recoil feels like 44 mag H110 max loads in an S&W 29-4.
4) Winchester 94 45C lever action rifle 0.3" thick chamber walls. I run at 22 kps 24 gr H110 250 gr XTP, it is all the recoil I would want, and more.
5) Win 92 38-40 made in 1904, [.465" base dia, not .480 like a 45 Colt, but close] Chambers walls 0.22", I run at 26kpsi, all the recoil I would want.
6) Wards [Stevens OEM] break action 410 .26" thick chamber walls. I have run 45 Colt brass to ~ 90 kpsi [454 double loads with longer OAL] to get brass to flow. Did not shoulder the shotgun. Had I shouldered the shotgun, it might have broken my collar bone. I held the butt in my left palm and let the shotgun recoil slow down over a few feet. Once I put the but against concrete, and the recoil broke the wrist of the hardwood stock.

 

[Real Gun]

I would use only .452 bullets with a crimp groove, intended for the 45 Colt.

The dies will distort anything larger than .452. You would have to compromise the crimp to avoid it. I have had to resize even .453 bullets just to control leading. Others may disagree but they can't tell me what my experience was. If the bullet imprints clearly through the case, you have a problem with either dies or bullet size.

If you are going to load lead on a regular basis, buy the RCBS Cowboy die set. Then the cartridges will look like factory rather than overstuffed sausages.

.451 bullets could allow gas to escape and cause leading. The current standard is .452.

The crimp groove is especially important in a tube fed rifle, so the bullets don't move under recoil and handling. Loads that are full spec or beyond may need the crimp for optimal powder ignition and full pressure potential...efficiency and performance in general.