45 Black powder magnum

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Magnum Wheel Man

New member
not wanting to hyjack the other thread... I saw this link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Black_Powder_Magnum

& became very interested... I have several cartridge conversion revolvers, & always wanted to do something with a Walker "magnum"

this seems really interesting... I'd take the 460 S&W cases & knurl out the head stamp ( as I often do on custom cases converted from another )

I think I need to buy a Walker :D even if it gets re-barreled with a .451" barrel seems like an awesome idea...

thoughts... good bad or otherwise ???
 
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Bob Wright

New member
I think whoever dreamed up that idea had his head floating from smoking that funny grass.

A Walker replica is not made for that kind of use, many even loosen up from simply shooting a steady diet of black powder charges for which they were intended.

Bad idea in my book.

And, for whatever its worth, black powder revolvers are not legal hunting arms in many states.

Bob Wright
 
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Magnum Wheel Man

New member
I think the idea is to use the same charges the Walker uses, only to do it in the 460 S&W case... same charge, same bullet weight, do you think it is inherently harder on the revolver using cases ???
 
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Bob Wright

New member
Few people load the full charge of the Walker. Whether that heavy charge is contained in a case or loose powder crammed into the cylinder charge hole, I don't believe a Colt style cap-and-ball gun will stand up to heavy use of very heavy charges.

No experience of my own, I know, just my observation. But the open top, barrel wedge design is not the strongest.

My gut feeling is that if you want magnum performance, use a modern magnum revolver.

Bob Wright
 
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savit260

New member
IMO 60 gr with a round ball in a cartridge isn't going to be much if any different loaded loose with a percussion cap, except being way more convenient in the field.

I'd think the Walker replicas should be up to the task.

I shoot 35gr of BP in 45 Colt brass with a round ball in my 1860 Army with a conversion cylinder, and it's not hard on the gun. The 60 is positively dainty compared to the Walker.

50 gr of BP (if it'll even fit) with a 250 gr bullet might beat it up a bit after a while though.

My experience with the 60 cartridge conversion is that a stout load of BP and a 250 gr bullet is a bit hard on the gun, but it takes the round ball in stride.
 
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Magnum Wheel Man

New member
knowing my retired builder buddies thoughts, he / we would be discussing the hand bomb potential of someone down the road, sticking a factory 460 in the chamber... so my thoughts, are to trim an 1/8" or so off the 460 case, & only make the chambers that deep...

my buddy has already made me 2 cartridge conversion guns in the past, & has ways of strengthening the frames of these open top guns... I'm thinking perhaps designing the case length around a 55 grain ( 65 grains less than maximum charge on the cap & ball cylinder ) & the possible design of a load using Trailboss...

BTW... I've always wanted a Walker, but just don't have the time for shooting "the black" as far as cleaning goes ( & have yet made the investment in black powder cartridge loading specialty items )
 
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savit260

New member
Is taking 1/8 " off the length enough to keep a 454 Casull from fitting in there?

I'd think you'd have to trim it back all the way to 45 S&W (Schofield) length if you're worried about some doofis down the road loading smokeless in it. Doing that kind of defeats the concept of the 45 BPM.
 
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savit260

New member
BTW... I've always wanted a Walker, but just don't have the time for shooting "the black" as far as cleaning goes ( & have yet made the investment in black powder cartridge loading specialty items )
Click to expand...

If you're not going to shoot BP, and are sticking with smokeless, why not just stick with 45 Colt? The whole concept of the 45 BPM from my understanding is to have room for the extra black powder. In a smokeless load, all that extra room isn't really doing you any good IMO.
 
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Magnum Wheel Man

New member
my main concern, with the BPM, is it uses 460 cases... & down the road, after I'm gone ( my cases would have the case head stamps knurled off them ) yes... so dufus could put a 454 in one, but likely there are a lot of 45 Colts that could take the 454, so you can't protect "all" the idiots...

I load a lot of Trailboss, which I could likely still use the case length ( with careful experimentation... however, I'd like to ( as I get older ) start playing with some black powder cartridges, & maybe this would be my "gateway drug" :eek:
 
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Bob Wright

New member
I mentioned this to my gunsmith this morning, and he agree that it is a bad idea.

He said no catastrophic failure would likely occur, such as blowing the cylinder up. But simply put, the Walker design, as with other Colts of the era, is simply not strong enough to withstand much firing of such heavy charges.

Cosidering that most of the strain is on the barrel wedge and cylinder arbor, leave well enough alone. If you want magnum performance, us a magnum revolver.

Bob Wright
 
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Magnum Wheel Man

New member
So I did talk to my buddy briefly, over lunch, he would rather do the conversion on 444 Marlin cases, than the 460 which I guess I'm fine with ( would that make it a 44 Black Powder Magnum ? )

he started going in depth, about what he would do to strengthen, the guns... he loves doing these, & has done many... ( not on Walkers yet though ) new cylinder heavier cylinder pin threaded into the frame, etc. but more than just a conversion cylinder, he would be adding a firing pin, as well as a loading gate, said any of the Walker reproductions he knew of would be fine for mild smokeless loads, including a Trailboss case full of either the 460, or the 444 Marlin, cut to cylinder length with the COL, with the changes he makes to the guns... but thought if I could find an old Navy Arms, that would likely be the best... I have one local gun show I sell at, coming up in a couple weeks... I'll have to put someone on a search for a Walker reproduction ( I think there is a guy, normally 3-4 tables down from me, that usually sells black powder revolvers )
 
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buck460XVR

New member
Sounds like by the time you get all done, you'll have a custom revolver shooting custom length cartridges, that shoots similar to a regular .460 revolver shooting a .460 case loaded 95% full with TrailBoss.......well, except for the smoke.
 
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Magnum Wheel Man

New member
sure...you had to throw a monkey wrench into the equation...

could probably get just as good of velocity results ( according to the OP of that thread ) with 45 Colt, case volume, but I use Trailboss, so that is pretty fluffy...

also the concern with the arbor & wedge would be completely taken care of by my builder, as the gun would be modified as a center fire, rather than use a conversion cylinder, & those parts would be replaced by modern tool steels...

adds to the fact, that I don't currently play "the black" game, but I'd like to get there in the future

hmmm...
 
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Bezoar

Moderator
i have no idea how many times, that the smartest guys on here have always reminded us that when a cartridge is used in a percussion revolver, the way the strain forces change on the frame, decrease frame life rapidly.
Even if you use the same bullet and black powder charge as you used in the original percussion cylinder.

example, if you use 30 grains bp or substitute and a .454 round ball in an 1860, the same powder charge and round ball put into a cartridge case and a conversion cylinder will wear the gun out 30-40 percent faster. Not exactly smart in my opinion considering how much the gun itself costs.
 
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Bob Wright

New member
In response to Bezoar's comments ^^^ I don't believe using cartridge conversions in cap-and-ball increase wear on the gun, so long as powder charge and bullet weight remain equal. Recoil is a function of bullet weight and powder charge, whether that is contained in a brass case or loose in a cylinder. (Not really loose, but compacted.)

My objection to making the "magnum" round, using full capacity powder charges is what concernes me. As I stated my first objection, I felt that this imposed undue strain on the cylinder arbor, wedge, and recoil shield of the gun. From what has been posted, the arbor and wedge are going to be reinforced along with the gun's mainframe, which is a horse of a different color altogether.

So based on redesign of the gun, I can't really guess what the outcome might be. Again I re-emphasize that there is not likely to be a catastrophic failure of the cylinder.

The only other possible source of problems is that when using cartridges instead of cap-and-ball loading there is likely to be more rounds fired due to ease and rapidity of loading, thus increasing wear on the gun.

Bob Wright
 
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Ozzieman

New member
I’m with Bob!
250 GR bullet with 48 GR FFF
200 GR bullet with 52 GR FFF
And can hold as much as 60 GR
80% charge of a 45/70 in a revolver with a lighter bullet.
This is in a sealed case with crimped bullet. Not a round ball of
147 GR with 50 GR which is what was recommended max for my Walker.
I would not even think about this unless I saw pressure test that did not surpass a 147/50 GR load has.
Before you turn your Walker into a BPM you might want to read the following.


https://americanhandgunner.com/exclusive-web-extra-the-coltwalker-44/
 
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