.45-70 or .30-30, considerations and suggestions?

[flyboy015]

For my next rifle, I'd love to have a lever gun, and I believe I've settled on a Marlin big-lever model, either the Model 336 BL in .30-30, or the Model 1895 BL in .45-70.

The trouble is, I can't settle on either one. I don't care too much about the difference in price of the models (about $140 more for the .45-70, via Cabela's) or the difference in ammo price. (Consider Hornady's Leverevolution at MidwayUSA, $1.67/rd for the big bore and $1.20/rd for .30-30.)

I'm having a little trouble understanding ballistics with the .45-70; particularly the bullet drop at longer ranges and a supposed need for hold-over or sight correction at longer ranges. I get that it's a big, heavy chunk of lead and not exceptional velocities, but is this really a big factor?

This rifle would probably not have a scope or optic, but rather the factory peep sight or perhaps some upgraded irons. I understand the .30-30 is only effective for under 200 yards, but there also seems to be a lot of opinion on the internet that the .30-30 cartridge is kind of limited, generally speaking.

I have yet to get into hunting (the father in law presents the perfect opportunity every year with white tail deer in PA) and so far, I only own a .22lr and a .223 AR. We have a lot of woods and plenty of black bear, so it seems that either caliber would be good for hunting. I've read that the .45-70 bullets typically don't destroy any meat other than what they immediately hit. I am, however, an avid plinker and paper-puncher.

Is the cost of reloading either of these cartridges significantly different?

What have been your experiences with one or both of these rounds?

Though it shouldn't be much of a deciding factor, my wife and I have decided we're moving to Alaska when I retire (I'm a baby at 25, so that's gonna be a while ) and I can't help but think it would pay well to learn how to shoot the .45-70 at longer ranges, or different bullet weights, so when we do move to Alaska, I can harvest moose, elk and caribou, and of course prevent closer-range attacks from pesky bears when I'm salmon fishing!

Recoil is also not an issue. I'm 6' even and 250 lbs.

Any tips, pointers, suggestions or opinions would be appreciated!

 

[Slamfire]

Go over to this website and play with the ballistic calculator.

http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/

I did. I ran a comparison of the 30-030 with a 170 grain bullet (because that is what my Marlin 336 shoots) and a 45/70 with a 405 grain bullet. I am loading at black powder velocities so my 405 grain bullets are only moving around 1200 fps. Very slow.


The calculator assumes a 100 yard zero. For the 30-30, it drops 8 inches between 100 yards and 200 yards. The 45/70 drops 28 inches!. I than ran the numbers assuming factory 405 grain PMC load at 1350 fps. It drops 23 inches between 100 and 200 yards.

Neither of these cartridges are velocity champs and you cannot push them faster without having the groups go all to heck, at least that is my experience with my Marlin 30-30. The things will shoot best with ammunition at factory velocity, not slower, not faster.

The 45/70 is a better round up to 100 yards, makes a big through hole every time. Past that, the 30-30 is flatter shooting.

I spent a lot of time on the bench developing an accurate 30-30 load

Factory Rem 150 grain Core Lokt shot well once the barrel settled in

If I had a scope on my Garand, I would have shot a 20 shot group closer to 2" instead of over 4". The 30-06 is a flatter shooting round than either the 30-30 or 45/70. It is well worth considering as an alternative.

 

[bbqncigars]

The 45-70 is a very versatile round that is easy to load for. A nice accurate plinking load in my Marlin 1895 is 10.5 grains of Unique behind a 405 grain boolit. Stouter loads can take down any critter in North America. I got rid of my 30-30, but I have four 45-70s.

 

[Scoits]

I have a 45-70 Marlin guide gun. I reload 300 gr bullets over IMR 4198. It has a vel close to 2000fpm and groups well. It is an excellent deer cartridge and far out performs a 30-30.

 

[Mobuck]

The decision should include how much recoil you want to accept. I've personally never fired a 45/70 but have heard rumors that put me off of that round unless I expect to meet something that might eat me. I'm sure the frequent users will counter this but it makes the 45/70 unacceptable (to me anyway) for general use.
I'm not a 30/30 fan but it seems to be a better choice for the OP. Since the experience level (22lr & .223) would indicate maybe not well versed in getting the snot kicked out of him with every shot.

 

[mehavey]

A 45-70 shooting low pressure/relatively low recoil "trapdoor" loads
(405 Lyman/1,250fps) zeroed at 100 is point-blank ±2" out to
125 yards.
... which is right within what the OP said as his intended iron-sight regime.

The 45-70 is the short-mid range heavy caliber do-all cartridge...
...and vastly under-rated as to range, and over-rated as to recoil.

 

[Ricklin]

30-30

The 30-30 has killed more deer than just about anything. 45-70 is overkill for Bambi.
A 30-30 is my dark and heavy woods gun. If I am hunting open country my .270 gets the nod.

Not a fan of recoil and the good ol 30-30 gets the job done. Need ammo? Not every country store will have 45-70 on the shelf. If they have any ammo at all, 30-30 will be there.

 

[CLYA]

I got a 45-70 first, a 30-30 after that, and then another 45-70.
Reload for both.

 

[Jack O'Conner]

I've been killing deer with my 30-30 carbine for several decades without any problems at all. I've even made several trips to western South Dakota to hunt mule deer despite warnings from my buddies that I needed a long range rifle for these hunts. They were wrong. My farthest shot was approx 125 yards or so during a long stalk in rough country. Most of my shots at whitetail deer are less than 100 yards. Whether the 45-70 is better or worse than a good 30-30 carbine is a debate I'll leave for others to argue as I know what works quite well for me.

30-30 is a keeper!
Jack

 

[ligonierbill]

Do you want to be nostalgic or practical? Nostalgic is 1873 and the 45-70 "Gov't". I've been shooting a Trapdoor with 405 and 500 gr loads over Alliant Black MZ, a BP substitute. It's a hoot. Of course, you can load a modern lever action a bit hotter. Speer has a 400 gr jacketed bullet going 1,870 out of a Marlin 1895.

Practical is the newfangled smokeless 30-30 from 1895. Ammo is available everywhere, and reloading is a lot cheaper (powder and shot) than 45-70. Shooting irons, you're talking 200 yards, unless you have eagle eyes. Either cartridge will kill deer effectively at that range, and most PA shots are less than that.

Now, some real practical. Recoil tolerance is subjective, and size is not a real big factor. The stocks on traditional lever guns aren't the best for absorbing recoil. If you go 45-70 and are committed to learning to shoot it well, you will. But it will be easier and more fun with the 30-30. Also, consider used rifles. There are plenty of older Marlins and Winchesters out there. Sellers are kind of proud of them, but if you decide to sell later, you'll do better. I don't know if it's true or not, but many are questioning the quality of the new ones. Resale prices reflect that perception.

Finally, at the Pennsylvania deer camp my family has hunted for about 60 years, among the many rifles carried, one stands out: Savage 99 in .300 Savage. Plenty of them out there if you look. If you ever sell it (you won't), you'll get your money back.

 

[jmr40]

When the 30-30 came out it was considered more powerful than 45-70. And if using loads equivalent to the original black powder 45-70 loads it still is. Those loads are very comparable to 45 caliber muzzle loader loads. Which is the minimum for deer hunting in most places with primitive weapons. It would not be recommended for game larger than deer.

Despite the myths today 45-70 was not initially successful as a hunting round, and was introduced after most of the bison were dead and just before bison hunting was banned.

It was designed as a military round during the Indian wars where it was used briefly. By the 1890's it was basically dead. By the 1970's some hand loaders began experimenting with hotter loads and Marlin re-introduced the 1895 rifle in 45-70 to coincide with the 100th anniversary of the round. With modern loads it is now a legitimate big game round, but at the expense of recoil that will often exceed 458 WM from lighter rifles.

If you want a lever gun, buy a 30-30. If you want a 45-70 then get one in a trapdoor single shot that is period correct for what the cartridge was designed for and shoot traditional level loads. If you want to shoot modern loads, then buy a rifle designed to take them.

 

[TRX]

The .30-30 is a fine and underappreciated round, and relatively inexpensive if you don't reload, but I'd go with the .45-70. You can buy "Trapdoor" or "cowboy action" low-recoil rounds that will serve most purposes, and you can run .45-70-405s or 500s when you have the urge to put really big holes in something.

.45-70 vs "bulletproof glass" https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-6-ballistic-resistant-glass-gets-tested/ (.308 chipped it; wimpy Trapdoor .45-70-500 blew a hole through it)

 

[RC20]

First of all good luck retiring to Alaska, most of us have to retire OUT of Alaska!

By the time you hit retirement (if anyone can that age) climate change is going to have us like Nebraska.

Buy the 45-70 if you want, but it is not an Alaskan Cartridge. To range limited. Guides use the 444 for Bear Backup, but that's close up and personal.

Trust me, if you are fishing and a bear comes at you, by the time you get unlimbered you are toast. Suckers move faster than the quickest 350lb lineman.

Peperspray is your friend for that (and fairly rare attacks fishing, usually its other encounters)

30-06 is good all around for any Alaska game (a bit much for South East or Kodiak Deer) though you can go with 150 grain bullets.

7mm is also good as its got a bit more flat for Sheep (getting a ticket for those is rare)

 

[Old Stony]

You will find the 45/70 to be a much more versatile cartridge than the 30/30. I have nothing against the 30/30's, but they are much more limited in the reloading department. The large 45/70 rounds can be mild plinkers for fun, or real thumpers for serious stuff.

 

[Hawg]

I like them both. The 30-30 doesn't have much recoil and the 45-70 not much more, at least with factory rounds but it can be loaded up to where it will make a grown man cry out of a Siamese Mauser. If I had to make a choice I'd go with the 30-30.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...Recoil is also not an issue..." Right. Neither is your size. Size makes no difference whatsoever when dealing with felt recoil.
A 170 grain bullet at 2200 FPS out of a 7.5 pound .30-30 recoils with 11.0 ft-lbs. A 405 grain bullet at 1330 FPS out of a 7.5 pound .45-70 rifle has 18.7 ft-lbs.
"...moving to Alaska when I retire..." You'll likely be re-thinking that when you get that far. Gets really cold in Alaska and it stays cold for months. It's winter there right now. More about the amount of day light though. Sun up was at 0808 today in Anchorage. Sets at 7:26 PM.
Anyway, you can toss a coin and buy the rifle that speaks to you. Between a .30-30 and .45-70 it really doesn't matter for hunting. Or shooting for the fun of it.

 

[fredvon4]

Nothing but good opinions from 30-30 or 45-70... have and love mine

If moving to the great wilderness is your passion some day...
I was there in the Army in the 70s.. twas a dream of mine to go back

If you are serious then you MUST preserve your body when you are young

I managed to NOT take care of the old bod...put away wet, cold and hungry too many time from military service---- and my own dangerous pastimes...skydiving, hunting, bike racing also a lot of damage from mechanizing on engines with no protections from too many harsh chemicals

By the time I was able to afford a Perfect Alaska retirement location, we deliberately made a few trips for extended stays during both summer and winter.... Long winter HURTS too much...to me

I love Alaska, but it is a environment that demands a stout human...wet cold water, steep climbs, Not much internet, better more costly equipment....you would be amazed at all that does NOT WORK at 30 below

Yes there are many sort of big city enclaves where a lot of this is easy to adjust to.... BUT what is the point of dreaming about the wilderness living if you just move to Seattle North?

Most all my Alaska friends I know, and used to hunt/fish with, do the pepper spray, Boat horn, and BFHG carry when dinking about where bears are a problem...BFHG you ask?
Big F.... Hand GUN

The proper long hunting rifles for Deer/Elk/ and Moose are not that good for a charging bear....except tho throw at the bugger while you get the proper tool into action


Recoil ... of a 45-70 I think is lighter then some of my other long guns... BUT that is me with well over 50,000 shots against my shoulder...
MY Uncles 8 Gage 37" long goose gun...that one hurt

 

[444]

That would be a tough decision.

I own both.

In my opinion, if you are a reloader, the .45/70 gives you a lot more to play around with. As was mentioned previously, most of the .45/70 ammo I shoot is cast bullets loaded with pistol powder. This gives you a load that is approx. similar in velocity to a heavy .45 Colt/.44 Magnum handgun only with a significantly bigger bullet and with very mild recoil and is quite inexpensive to shoot. Of course you can go from there up to loads that are knocking on the door of the .458 Win Mag if you have reason to do so. Even those cast bullets with pistol powder are more than adequate for shooting whitetail deer.

On the other hand, the .30-30 is a great rifle. Mine is the classic Winchester 94. I have owned a few of these over the years. If you don't reload, stores usually have a fairly wide selection of .30-30 ammo price wise. I am an avid reloader (it's probably more my hobby than the guns are) but I have never reloaded a .30-30 round. I don't shoot the gun all that much: once or twice a year and I just shoot factory ammo. I am not really convinced that there is any real advantage to reloading this cartridge for ME.

If I could only have one, I would be deeply torn but would probably go with the .45/70.

 

[Deaf Smith]

You could get an older Marlin Texan 336 30/30 for somewhat over $400.

Mine is set up so well I leave it alone!

Now I have one of the new Marlin 'Rimlin' .45/70 fancy new stainless guide guns. 18 inch barrel with full 6 shot mag, Ashley sights with a rail, laminated stock, and someone took the safety out (the push button) and put a saddle ring in place. But... $800!!!

If it's just deer, get the 30/30. Get an older Marlin!

Deaf

 

[mehavey]

- The 30-30 relies on an expanding small-caliber bullet energy dump

- The 45-70 is already pre-expanded, and drives a large hole through things. Even trapdoor loads.




(Besides -- its big 'push' is much more pleasant to shoot the that mean/fast rise-time "snappy" 30-30)

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