The 90 and 120 obviously are longer and have more case capacity but how much more powerful are they than the 45-70. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the difference was very small with smokeless powder but made a pretty big difference w/blackpowder. Doesn't make sense to me.
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45-70, 45-90, 45-120
- Thread starter publius
- Start date
One of the advantages of smokeless powder is that it stores more energy than black powder and generates lots of pressure, so a very moderate increase in case volume and powder charge has a big effect on pressure and velocity. Black powder burns very quickly but generates only moderate pressures, so increasing the case volume and charge of black powder has a very large effect on bullet velocity. In a 45-90 and 45-120 loaded with smokeless powder, very little of the added case capacity would be utilized to hold additional powder and therefore would not contribute to velocity gain. Most of the rifles chambered for 45-90 and 45-120 are not strong enough to gain very much from their use with smokeless powder, since the metallurgy used duplicates 1800's metal strength. But in a stronger rifle, they might show a worthwhile gain. But even 100 years ago, the added recoil of the larger rounds and expense of the better firearms voided any performance gain for most shooters.
Even with black powder, the larger cases were finicky and were hard to get good accuracy from.
Even with black powder, the larger cases were finicky and were hard to get good accuracy from.
I obviously shoot a Ruger #1 in 45-70. I have tried some awefully powerful reloads in it and I must say, I will not try to shoot them from a bench any longer given a choice. I think the situation may just be there is no gun made that could handle a porportional amount of "smokeless" powder to the Ruger #1. Black to black powder, the 120 will be more powerful, but I also think my Ruger can launch any weight bullet using smokeless faster than a BP 45-120.
Most 45-120's I have seen are basically Sharps and a fine rifle they are, just not capable of handling smokeless charges to the degree some guns can.
Most 45-120's I have seen are basically Sharps and a fine rifle they are, just not capable of handling smokeless charges to the degree some guns can.
Swampghost
New member
WHY would you want more than a 45-70 on this continent? The round was a favorite of buffalo hunters as was the 50-90.
T.A.Sharps
New member
45/70 Ruger #1 can get a 500 grain bullet to 1800fps, or a 300 grain bullet at 2200fps. This is with smokeless powder.
1100fps to 1350fps in black powder from a 45/70.
A 45-120 will shoot a 720 Grain bullet at 1110fps, or 500 grain at 1900fps, and these are just some loads I found with with black powder. A .50Cal BMG bullet is in this same bullet weight range.
Not sure of smokeless loads for 45-120.
All three of the cartridges were made for black powder. Basically different lengths of brass to hold more powder to shoot the same bullet. Its a .458" bullet, and some are heavier or lighter, and can be loaded in a 45/120, 45/90 or a 45/70, just with a different powder load.
So if you want to hand load and use black powder, which is easier than smokeless, get which ever would suits your velocity/power needs. 45/120 getting higher velocities for a given bullet weight.
If you want smokeless, or more options for commercial availability, get the 45/70. You can go to your local gun shop and find a few boxes of 45/70. Or you can hand load it too with a wide range of performance. HOWEVER, accept for a certain few companies, the ammo available commercially is kept to a low pressure standard, limiting the performance a lot.
There are three chamber pressure levels for the 45/70. That is, three different rifle types, with different abilities to hold pressure.
The lowest, for which 95% of commercial ammo is loaded, is safe for ALL 45/70's in working order, old or new, I think it is 24,000CUP.
A Marlin or other new lever action almost double that, I've seen load data for up to a 45,000CUP limit.
And a Ruger No.1, No.3, or a Mauser Bolt action has a limit of 50,000CUP. Anything past that I think it is limited to the strength of the brass, hence the .450 Marlin.
Not to mention a Rifle in 45/70 would be more affordable. A Marlin 1895 or a Ruger #1 or #3 would cost $400-$800, depending on condition. A rifle in 45/90, or 45/120, would be at least $1000-$2000, depending on the brand.
Hope I explained all that ok.
1100fps to 1350fps in black powder from a 45/70.
A 45-120 will shoot a 720 Grain bullet at 1110fps, or 500 grain at 1900fps, and these are just some loads I found with with black powder. A .50Cal BMG bullet is in this same bullet weight range.
Not sure of smokeless loads for 45-120.
All three of the cartridges were made for black powder. Basically different lengths of brass to hold more powder to shoot the same bullet. Its a .458" bullet, and some are heavier or lighter, and can be loaded in a 45/120, 45/90 or a 45/70, just with a different powder load.
So if you want to hand load and use black powder, which is easier than smokeless, get which ever would suits your velocity/power needs. 45/120 getting higher velocities for a given bullet weight.
If you want smokeless, or more options for commercial availability, get the 45/70. You can go to your local gun shop and find a few boxes of 45/70. Or you can hand load it too with a wide range of performance. HOWEVER, accept for a certain few companies, the ammo available commercially is kept to a low pressure standard, limiting the performance a lot.
There are three chamber pressure levels for the 45/70. That is, three different rifle types, with different abilities to hold pressure.
The lowest, for which 95% of commercial ammo is loaded, is safe for ALL 45/70's in working order, old or new, I think it is 24,000CUP.
A Marlin or other new lever action almost double that, I've seen load data for up to a 45,000CUP limit.
And a Ruger No.1, No.3, or a Mauser Bolt action has a limit of 50,000CUP. Anything past that I think it is limited to the strength of the brass, hence the .450 Marlin.
Not to mention a Rifle in 45/70 would be more affordable. A Marlin 1895 or a Ruger #1 or #3 would cost $400-$800, depending on condition. A rifle in 45/90, or 45/120, would be at least $1000-$2000, depending on the brand.
Hope I explained all that ok.
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
very good replys... but to clairify... black powder is bulkier than smokeless powder of equal bullet velocity / pressure potential... so on most larger black powder cartridges converted to smokeless powder... the case is larger than needed for safe levels of smokeless powder... in fact the larger cases can be hard to load, as a maximum smokeless powder charge could ( in theory ), only 1/2 fill the old black powder case, resulting in hang fires, large pressure & velocity variances, etc.
Mike Irwin
Staff
In original blackpowder factory loads, the differences are not all that great.
A few hundred FPS between the .45-70 and the .45-120.
With blackpowder it takes a LOT more powder to get any meaningful increase in velocity.
A few hundred FPS between the .45-70 and the .45-120.
With blackpowder it takes a LOT more powder to get any meaningful increase in velocity.
Yep, it's hard enough getting a good smokeless power 45/70 load because of the large case, why would you want an even larger case to contend with. Now if you're going to load black powder or pyrodex then the extra case size might come in handy but for smokeless stick with the 45/70 and enjoy the plentiful and relitively inexpensive brass that can be had.