In the not so distant future I would like to get a reproduction sharp's rifle. And I really don’t know very much about the previously stated calibers. The main goal of the rifle would be too see how far I can accurately shoot it. So what can you tell me about 45-110 45-120 and 50-90
45-110,45-120 and 50-90
- Thread starter MDman
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Jim Watson
New member
From what I have read - I shoot a .38-55 - the .45-110 (.45x2 7/8") was the biggest production Sharps cartridge. Said to be a good shooter if you can load for it and handle it, fine for Creedmoor to 1000 yards and beyond.
Sharps never chambered a factory rifle for .45x3 1/4", so called .45-120. There was some .45-120 Sharps ammunition = 120 grains of powder in the 2 7/8" case with a paper patched bullet loaded long. .45x 3 1/4" has the reputation of being hard to load good ammunition for.
I don't consider the .50-90 a long range cartridge by competitive standards, although it worked for Billy Dixon.
I trust you are planning on loading black powder and really well cast bullets. Smokeless is not as accurate in those big cartridges and if you just insist on using it, there is little reason for anything bigger than .45-70 or maybe .45x2.4" (.45-90)
Sharps never chambered a factory rifle for .45x3 1/4", so called .45-120. There was some .45-120 Sharps ammunition = 120 grains of powder in the 2 7/8" case with a paper patched bullet loaded long. .45x 3 1/4" has the reputation of being hard to load good ammunition for.
I don't consider the .50-90 a long range cartridge by competitive standards, although it worked for Billy Dixon.
I trust you are planning on loading black powder and really well cast bullets. Smokeless is not as accurate in those big cartridges and if you just insist on using it, there is little reason for anything bigger than .45-70 or maybe .45x2.4" (.45-90)
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
Agree with JIM...
I thought the 38-55 was the standard for long range accuracy...
& that most of the "long" 45 cartridges were more popularized by Hollywood than they were used in real life...
... also agree that if you are going to use smokeless on those big 'ol cases, the 45-70 is a better option though I've expiremented with some bulkier powders on my 50-70, but that certainly isn't a long range cartridge...
I thought the 38-55 was the standard for long range accuracy...
& that most of the "long" 45 cartridges were more popularized by Hollywood than they were used in real life...
... also agree that if you are going to use smokeless on those big 'ol cases, the 45-70 is a better option though I've expiremented with some bulkier powders on my 50-70, but that certainly isn't a long range cartridge...
Jim Watson
New member
Well, .38-55 was the standard for scheutzen and midrange accuracy to about 300 yards. After that it, the wind bothers it more than heavier bullets and it won't always knock down the 500 metre ram silhouette. Nearly all the Long Range, Creedmoor, and specialty shooters use .45s, although there are some die hards with .44s and some experimentation going on with high Ballistic Coefficient .38s and .40s in larger cases.
Sharps eventually dropped their .40, .44, and .50 calibers and concentrated on the .45s although in about any case length from 2.1" to 2 7/8" you wanted.
Sharps eventually dropped their .40, .44, and .50 calibers and concentrated on the .45s although in about any case length from 2.1" to 2 7/8" you wanted.
I been reading many articles in Handloading magazine about BPCR mostly Mike Venturino. He said the most popular cartridge for BPCR is the 45-70. I think they load around 500+ grain bullets. Advantages, brass and components are readily available and you can shoot off the shelf ammunition for it. Also less recoil than a 45-110. I think the 40-70 is next in popularity I could be wrong.
I always wanted a Quigley Sharps in 45-110 but it I ever get one it would probably 45-70 because of that advantages. I do not reload yet so I looked on Old Western Scrounger a 20 count box of 45-110 $84.50.
I always wanted a Quigley Sharps in 45-110 but it I ever get one it would probably 45-70 because of that advantages. I do not reload yet so I looked on Old Western Scrounger a 20 count box of 45-110 $84.50.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
pesta, I've heard it repeated that you're best off getting a .45-90, not a .45-70, because the chamber is not too long to shoot standard .45-70s if you like, without modification. Or if you want to kick it up a notch, you can shoot .45-90. With .45-110 or 120 you cannot do this.
Jim Watson
New member
I do not understand the recent Internet Craze to buy big and shoot little.
Asking a soft .45-70 bullet to jump .30" across a .45-90 chamber before it gets to the rifling is just not going to be conducive to accuracy. It was a workaround before the old guns resumed enough popularity for brass to be made to fit. It sure isn't anything to do on purpose or to pick a gun for. If you want more punch out of a .45-70, there are moulds made that allow seating the bullet way out of the case leaving more room for powder to carry you to 1000 yards. Or the gun can be rechambered... with great care to avoid leaving a ridge or step at the end of the old chamber. I have an old article about that titled "A Conversion Failure."
It is not like the .458 Lott which is made to handle .458 Win Mag in a pinch.
By the way, pesta, the next most popular BPCR caliber after .45-70 seems to be .40-65. Brass made out of .45-70 is cheaper and it seems to be easier to get to shoot well than a real .40-70 Sharps Straight or Bottleneck.
P.S. All my remarks are directed at proper loading of the old calibers with black powder and lead bullets. If you want nitro powder and copper patched bullets, you are on your own. (And should really stay away from the big cases which are very inefficient with smokeless.)
Asking a soft .45-70 bullet to jump .30" across a .45-90 chamber before it gets to the rifling is just not going to be conducive to accuracy. It was a workaround before the old guns resumed enough popularity for brass to be made to fit. It sure isn't anything to do on purpose or to pick a gun for. If you want more punch out of a .45-70, there are moulds made that allow seating the bullet way out of the case leaving more room for powder to carry you to 1000 yards. Or the gun can be rechambered... with great care to avoid leaving a ridge or step at the end of the old chamber. I have an old article about that titled "A Conversion Failure."
It is not like the .458 Lott which is made to handle .458 Win Mag in a pinch.
By the way, pesta, the next most popular BPCR caliber after .45-70 seems to be .40-65. Brass made out of .45-70 is cheaper and it seems to be easier to get to shoot well than a real .40-70 Sharps Straight or Bottleneck.
P.S. All my remarks are directed at proper loading of the old calibers with black powder and lead bullets. If you want nitro powder and copper patched bullets, you are on your own. (And should really stay away from the big cases which are very inefficient with smokeless.)
Some of the old BP bottleneck cartridges are fun, too. I used to load BP and paper patched bullets for my 11mm Mauser 1871, and it was a hoot. As stated, don't load smokeless. If you want to avoid the problems with BP (corrosion, fouling), black powder substitutes like Pyrodex and 777 work OK, but there are issues with reliable ignition. The new Pioneer Gold black powder substitute seems to be more reliable and is the same weight/volume as black powder.
As a side note, never shoot copper jacketed bullets in rifles designed for BP. If you want to avoid leading issues, try paper patched or gas checked bullets.
Not being a long-range BP shooter, I am not that familiar with the different rifles and calibers, but it is interesting to note that the extremely large BP cartridges (45-110, 45-120, 50-120) were not popular during the expansion of the American frontier due to the lack of availability of the supplies needed to feed them, and were never really "buffalo cartridges" because the bison were already virtually exterminated by the time these rounds were introduced. There were probably a lot more buffalo killed with 40-60, 40-70, 45-70, 45-90, and 50 Spencer rounds due to their lower consumption of powder and lead.
As a side note, never shoot copper jacketed bullets in rifles designed for BP. If you want to avoid leading issues, try paper patched or gas checked bullets.
Not being a long-range BP shooter, I am not that familiar with the different rifles and calibers, but it is interesting to note that the extremely large BP cartridges (45-110, 45-120, 50-120) were not popular during the expansion of the American frontier due to the lack of availability of the supplies needed to feed them, and were never really "buffalo cartridges" because the bison were already virtually exterminated by the time these rounds were introduced. There were probably a lot more buffalo killed with 40-60, 40-70, 45-70, 45-90, and 50 Spencer rounds due to their lower consumption of powder and lead.
Mike Irwin
Staff
When I was following NRA Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette pretty much all of the top-flight shooters (like Steve Garbe) were using .40-60s or .40-70s.
To them those cartridges had the best balance of power for the long range rams and the recoil was light enough that they wouldn't be suffering or flinching at the end of a long day's shooting.
Many of the mid-line and beginning shooters were using .45-70 because it is the most common.
Quite a few of the newbies and the younger shooters were using .38-55s, knowing well that that performance on the rams might not be up to snuff. I saw more than one person hit a ram with a .38-55 but fail to clear it.
Other than one original Rolling Block in .44-77, I don't think I saw any .44s being used.
To them those cartridges had the best balance of power for the long range rams and the recoil was light enough that they wouldn't be suffering or flinching at the end of a long day's shooting.
Many of the mid-line and beginning shooters were using .45-70 because it is the most common.
Quite a few of the newbies and the younger shooters were using .38-55s, knowing well that that performance on the rams might not be up to snuff. I saw more than one person hit a ram with a .38-55 but fail to clear it.
Other than one original Rolling Block in .44-77, I don't think I saw any .44s being used.
Old Time Hunter
New member
The 40-82 was the most accurate long range BP cartridge, followed by the ever popular 45-70. Yes, there were attempts at the larger powder capacities like the .45-90, .45-110, and even the .50-110, but most of the Creedmore Rifles were .44-90 and the "long range" Rifles (#1,#2,...) were .44-90 until 1876 and then became .45-100's.
The US Military in their long range tests in the 1880's verified that the good ole' .45-70 was perfectly fine for up to 1500 yards. If I could find it, there was documentation, I'd post it, maybe someone else has access.
The US Military in their long range tests in the 1880's verified that the good ole' .45-70 was perfectly fine for up to 1500 yards. If I could find it, there was documentation, I'd post it, maybe someone else has access.
Jim Watson
New member
"Also I seem to be getting the idea that 45-70 with smokeless powder and 45-110 with BP are going to be equal at longer range shooting."
I doubt it.
In these old calibers, smokeless is not equal to black at all. A good black powder load will have single digit extreme spreads in velocity, which is important in holding elevation with low velocity bullets. Not something I have done or even heard claimed for smokeless.
A good stout .45-70 b.p. load will run a 520 grain bullet around 1200 fps.
Old Time, I presume you mean the Sandy Hook tests:
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/sandyhook.htm
I doubt it.
In these old calibers, smokeless is not equal to black at all. A good black powder load will have single digit extreme spreads in velocity, which is important in holding elevation with low velocity bullets. Not something I have done or even heard claimed for smokeless.
A good stout .45-70 b.p. load will run a 520 grain bullet around 1200 fps.
Old Time, I presume you mean the Sandy Hook tests:
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/sandyhook.htm
hi MDman,,you know i have been doing the BPCG game for a lot of years now,,and these guys have given you some really good info.
for me i like the 45-70,,,it has done for me everything i have ask it to do and not beat me up to bad doing it
in the last few years there has been a swing in the long range crowd to the 45-90......i will say this if you decide on one of these longer cases,,,DO NOT USE A SHORTER CASE IN THE CHAMBER,,,, if you ring the chamber you have recked the chamber,,, when you go back to the original cartridge it will expand into the ring and extraction will be a pain in the the arse
those long cartridges will get a lot of ooooh's and ahhhhh's for style points,,,and i don't know to many people that can make them work,, there are a few,,,,but they are living with the gun to unmask the secrets of the big boomer,,,, and they will KICK the hell out of you
my recommendation if you think you want more than a 45-70 would be a 45-90,, use 45-90 brass and load it down,,,, i will say that a full house 45-90 loads will start to be painful at the end of the day,,, i use black powder in my 45-70's,,, i can load 75 grains of 2f under a 535 gr. tapered bullet that i cast,,, the beauty of the tapered bullet is only half the driving bands are in the case the other half is in the bore,, so like has been said i can get more powder in the case.... i also use some of my guns to hunt with,,,i like a 480gr. NEI gas check lead bullet over 71gr of 2f,,,, that load will put that bullet through an elk at 225yrds.,,,,it has also taken 2 buffalo,,,along with several deer,,,,, i don't know how one of the bigger cartridges could do it better
i think there are some 45-90 smokeless loads out there but not very many,,, from there on up it's black powder
i don't mean to step on anyone's toes,,, this is just my experience through 25 years with black powder.....YMMV
ocharry
for me i like the 45-70,,,it has done for me everything i have ask it to do and not beat me up to bad doing it
in the last few years there has been a swing in the long range crowd to the 45-90......i will say this if you decide on one of these longer cases,,,DO NOT USE A SHORTER CASE IN THE CHAMBER,,,, if you ring the chamber you have recked the chamber,,, when you go back to the original cartridge it will expand into the ring and extraction will be a pain in the the arse
those long cartridges will get a lot of ooooh's and ahhhhh's for style points,,,and i don't know to many people that can make them work,, there are a few,,,,but they are living with the gun to unmask the secrets of the big boomer,,,, and they will KICK the hell out of you
my recommendation if you think you want more than a 45-70 would be a 45-90,, use 45-90 brass and load it down,,,, i will say that a full house 45-90 loads will start to be painful at the end of the day,,, i use black powder in my 45-70's,,, i can load 75 grains of 2f under a 535 gr. tapered bullet that i cast,,, the beauty of the tapered bullet is only half the driving bands are in the case the other half is in the bore,, so like has been said i can get more powder in the case.... i also use some of my guns to hunt with,,,i like a 480gr. NEI gas check lead bullet over 71gr of 2f,,,, that load will put that bullet through an elk at 225yrds.,,,,it has also taken 2 buffalo,,,along with several deer,,,,, i don't know how one of the bigger cartridges could do it better
i think there are some 45-90 smokeless loads out there but not very many,,, from there on up it's black powder
i don't mean to step on anyone's toes,,, this is just my experience through 25 years with black powder.....YMMV
ocharry
Old Time Hunter
New member
Yes Mr. Watson, that was exactly the report I was referring to. The Sandy Hook trials.
Thank You!
Thank You!