.44special - benefits from carbine length barrel?

ZWolfgang

New member
I know that .357mag and .44mag ammo gets a huge boost in velocity and energy when fired from rifle-length barrels, but I would like to know how the much-less-powerful .44special round would benefit, if any, when fired from a carbine length barrel.

Take, for example, Speer's 200 gr. Gold Dot JHP .44 special round:

When fired through a 6" barrel, muzzel velocity and energy are 875 fps and 340 ft. lbs. energy.

Can anyone estimate with reasonably good accuracy what the velocity and energy of this particular round would be when fired from a 17" or 18.5" carbine?

Also, since the Gold Dot bullet in this round is, presumably, designed to expand well at 875 fps (muzzle), is it likely to perform less well (over-expand on impact) when pushed to higher velocities?
 

Mannlicher

New member
there are several things to bear in mind if you are expecting a longer barrel to turn your pistol cartridge into a super gun .
1. There is only so much powder in a handgun cartridge. Once the powder burns, thats it. The gasses only expand so much.
2. Handgun bullets are usually designed to perform within a set range of velocity. Some will actually perfom poorly at higher speeds.

Fireing from a longer barrel does not make a .357 into a .35 Whelan
 

ZWolfgang

New member
Mann... you're right. I totally understand the principles... but as it turns out, the .357 mag from carbine barrel lengths creates energies comparable to a .30-.30. The exceptions to what you're saying are .357mag and .44mag. Both the .357 mag and .44 mag calibers actually do really increase substantially in performance, whereas most of the other pistol calibers, such as 9mm and 45 ACP may not improve at all and might in fact become less effective when fired from a rifle because of the quick burning powder.

Another poster elsewhere has found with the chronograph that the .44 special round typically picks up about 300fps when fired through a carbine barrel vs. a pistol. Of course there is a commensurate increase in energy as well.

So the critical issue then, in the case of the magnums as well as the lowly .44 spl., is how well the bullet itself will hold-up/perform in terminal ballistics at the higher velocities.
 

Johnny Guest

Moderator in Memoriam
Sometimes, perhaps - - But not this one, IMO

ZWolfgang, you reference a certain load: Speer 200 gr. Gold Dot JHP .44 Spl, advertised at about 875 fps and 340 ft. lbs. energy, in a 6" barrel. I think this is one of those loads offered to provide decent performance and controlability from the "belly gun" class of .44 Spls. I question how well it does this, as it can be expected to drop well down into the 700s in a short Charter Bulldog or the like. Now, a 200 gr .429 dia. bullet at 750 (+/-) is respectable compared to a "standard type" .38 Spl from a 2", but it's still not a barn burner.

While I have NOT chronographed the Speer light bullet load, I doubt you'd see much over 900 fps in a 16" barrel. Due to barrel friction and other factors, you might very well see lower velocities from a 20" barrel.

I submit that the greater performance of the magnum cartridges from carbine length barrels is from the more traditional heavy bullet loads, powered by huge charges of slow burning powder, in the 2400/W296/H110 range. Typically, this type load, from a short barrel, leaves unburned powder on the surfaces below and forward of the muzzle. Fired from a long barrel, they burn a lot more of the powder, with far higher velocities. Using loads tuned for short barrels with faster powders such as Unique, Universal, W231, or Bullseye, there won't be nearly as much gain in the long barrels.

To realize the gains you mention with the .44 Spl, I really believe that you'll need to go to handloading. The more traditional 240 to 255 gr. LSWC bullets, stoked by slower burning powders, a la the writings of Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton, will undoubtedly show a more significant increase through a 16- to 20-inch barrel. A word of caution is in order here - - Many "Classic" heavy .44 Special loads are now considered to be FAR in excess of safe pressures. I'm thinking particularly of some mentioned by Keith in his fine old book, Sixguns.
Also, since the Gold Dot bullet in this round is, presumably, designed to expand well at 875 fps (muzzle), is it likely to perform less well (over-expand on impact) when pushed to higher velocities?
The GDHP is said to perform well over a pretty wide range of velocities. If by "pushed," you mean handloaded to much greater velocities, you might want to explore the lighter .429 Hornady XTP bullets. IF you mean the Speer factory load from a longer barrel, I don't think it would come anywhere near "blowup" or fragmentation in game.
Another poster elsewhere has found with the chronograph that the .44 special round typically picks up about 300fps when fired through a carbine barrel vs. a pistol. Of course there is a commensurate increase in energy as well.
Taking that poster's statement at face value, the key is WHICH .44 Spl round, and fired from WHICH barrels? Remington's website shows their "traditional" .44 Spl load as a 246 LRN at 755 MV with 310 fpe from a six-inch test barrel. See - -
http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/pr/results.asp?cal=17

I dare say this modest (but quite accurate) old load, if fired from, say, a 2" Bulldog Pug, probably wouldn't greatly exceed 600 fps. It might well do over 800 from a carbine. Some of Keith's hot loads would no doubt show even greater differences, though I just flat would NOT fire 'em through a lightweight Charter. :eek:

ZWolfgang, I don't want to come across as a naysayer, and I certainly mean no personal offense to you. I've done a fair amount of experimentation with different loads over the past few decades. I've run down some interesting trails. If most of them led to dead ends, well, sometimes the journey is really more fun than reaching the destination. :p

Best of luck to you - -
Johnny
 

ZWolfgang

New member
Johnny... thanks for the post. You certainly have much more experience with this than I do and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.

Since I'm looking for a defense load to use in my .44mag lever rifle, and since I don't at present handload, I prefer to stick to factory ammo - and I know that limits me quite a bit, but that's ok because I *think* there must be a load in either .44spl or .44mag which will work reasonably well for expansion and penetration for defense. Well, .44spl may be out of the question, but there must be a factory load for .44mag which would work well. I do understand that with most of the .44mag rounds, there is most likely going to be through and through penetration, but given the possibility of heavy or layered clothing, a thick coat, large perp, possibly some armor, and a perp pepped up on drugs or whatnot... and since I live in the country on 5 acres... I am willing to consider the .44mag as a defense load here on my property. There is no douubt about getting the velocity or energy with .44mag, but the issue would be to find the right loading and bullet type to prevent either disintegration on impact from a very light hollowpoint or complete penetration without expansion, as might be the case with a heavy hunting load.

The .44mag loads I'm considering are the following. Would you have any idea which of them might be best for defense use from a 17" carbine lever rifle?

Pro-Load Gold Dot Tactical Lite EST ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
PL44MT1 44 Magnum 200 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1450
PL44MT1 44 Magnum 200 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>934

Winchester Supreme Partition Gold - EST ballistics for 16" carbine barrel
S44MP 44 Magnum 250 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1630
S44MP 44 Magnum 250 FMJ HP Energy >>>1475

Speer Gold Dot EST ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
23972 44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1850
23972 44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>1595

Speer Gold Dot EST ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
23973 44 Magnum 240 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1800
23973 44 Magnum 240 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>1726



Hornady XTP - EST ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9081 44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1950
9081 44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Energy >>>1520

Hornady XTP - EST ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9080 44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1900
9080 44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Energy >>>1603

Hornady XTP - EST ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9085 44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1750
9085 44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Energy >>>1632

Hornady XTP - EST ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9088 44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1550
9088 44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Energy >>>1600

Winchester Super X - Ballistics based on RIFLE
X44MS 44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Velocity >>>1580
X44MS 44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Energy >>>1164
 

bearkiller

New member
ZWolf,

Disclaimer: Load data below is for my gun only. Use at your own risk! YMMV.

I reload for .357, .41, and .44 and have marlin carbines in each. My chrony
tells me that a hot .44 spl load of 12.0 gr bluedot under a 200gr XTP yields
1020fps from my 7.5" redhawk and 1275 from the carbine with a 20" barrel.
I doubt that most factory .44 spl loads in a carbine would ever attain the
near 1300fps Iexperienced because the powder that they use is most likely
faster than bluedot, which is at the slower end of the spectrum for pistol
powders used in the .44 spl. Gain for .44 mag loads using H-110, W296, or
H4227 are another story. The expected gain there would be in the 300 - 400 fps
range using sane max loads.

The gain in velocity is definately a function of barrel length and powder speed.
Since you are using factory ammo you may want to invest in a chrony to
get actual data IN YOUR GUN for any given round.
 

Johnny Guest

Moderator in Memoriam
I must preface my remarks - -

- -by being candid and saying my experience with .44 mag carbines is very limited. I've probably fired less than 50 rounds total of .44 mag in carbines. And I have never personally done any chronography of those.

That said - - I can make an estimation based upon being placed in your situation, rural five acres and a short .44 mag carbine as my sole long gun. I think combination of flat trajectory and more-than-adequate power would lead me to a choice of either - -

Winchester Super X X44MS 44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP at >>>1580
or
Pro-Load PL44MT1 44 Magnum 200 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1450 (This estimate may be a touch optomistic, but, really, 1200 should be plenty.)

I believe either of these would do the trick nicely, and my choice would be based on my personal tests in my particular carbine. Some pieces do not feed certain bullet shapes reliably, and I think utter reliability takes precedence over any other factor. I'd rather use a 10/22 that worked ALL the time than anything else that worked MOST of the time.

My second consideration would be accuracy - - I'd want to know that I could reliably hit a paper plate at 50 yards with it, rapidly. While reliability is paramount, I feel the ability to place the bullet within four or five inches of point of aim runs a close second.

Given this arm/ammo combination, I'd feel very confident in my ability to defend my rural premises against ANY human predator, and most of the four-legged variety. I hasten to add, though: I am totally unfamiliar with SW Washington State. Is there any possibility of big bears wandering onto your rural acreage? If so, I'd want to choose a 240 gr. load. ;)

These are my thoughts, for whatever they're worth. I'd be really happy to read comments from someone with greater first-hand experience on this topic.

Regards,
Johnny
 

bearkiller

New member
I agree with JohnnyGuest, reliability is a prime concern. That being said,
if a handloader verifies a given cartridge overall length and bullet nose profile
than reliability in a lever carbine will be there provided the load can get
the bullet out of the barrel! :)

Sight in a 50 yds, you will still be good at 100 (drop is about 3" or so).

If bears are a potential threat that you may need to use the .44 on, I'd
suggest using a stronger load and hardcast bullets to get max penetration.
A 200gr JHP isnt going to do the job.
 
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