44 Spl in Short Barrel?

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Nomadicone

New member
I’m looking for input from folks who have a good knowledge of 44 Spl in a short barrel revolver. My ideal would be a Mod 696 but right now the budget won’t support that and they aren’t real available. So…if I want to get 850-900fps with a 240gr cast bullet out of a 2” or 2.5” barrel is it possible with either the Charter Arms 2.5” or Taurus 2”. I handload so I won’t be buying factory fodder. Just for the record I don’t like to push the limit on pressure either. Has anyone chronoed either of these two revolvers and what were you able to get velocity wise within reasonable pressure levels?
 
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Rampant_Colt

New member
I would personally not recommend attempting to try getting that high of velocity from those two particular handguns.

240gr lead @ 850-900fps is in my opinion too hot for Charter Arms, less so for the more rugged Taurus 440-series snubbies. There would be a lot of flash from unburned powder▬especially from the slow-burning types (H110/2400/296/Unique), that are required to drive .429-.430 lead bullets to that kinda velocity from a short barrel. You may achieve the published velocities from a 4" or 6" barrel, but probably not from a 2" or 2.5" snubnose.

Reloading guides are your best reference for finding suitable load combinations to achieve your intended goal. Just make sure when you read the loading guides, make note of the type of barrel that was used to test the load, because they sometimes use a 6"-7" 'vented test barrel' (used to simulate the barrel-cylinder gap of revolvers) that causes published velocities to be on the high side.

Mind if I ask what you are planning to use them for? Self-defense? Besides opening a whole can of worms about that subject, recoil would be fierce from the Charter Arms, less so for the Taurus..


On a side note, ammunition manufacturers will sometimes publish a very high velocity for a particular defensive load because velocity sells. They will also sometimes use a longer than average barrel length to achieve their published velocities. *coughs* Buffalo Bore, Double Tap
 
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drail

Moderator
Allow me to wade in here....I have been carrying and handloading for 3 in. .44 snubs since the 80s. Starting with a Charter Bulldog in 87 (still carry it some) and then a 696 when they were introduced in 96. Brian Pearce of Handloader first opined that with these guns you don't "need" to push 240 gr. bullets, and he was right. A 200 gr. bullet going 850 to 900 fps. is PLENTY of cowbell for just about anything you'll ever need it to do. This is easily acheivable with Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye, or 2400. I have been using 200 gr. "cowboy style" cast RNFP slugs for years now to practice with and they feel just like a big .38 Spl. with a nice "push" instead of snappy recoil. Very accurate. For CCW I use the CCI/Speer Gold Dot 200 gr. JHP which the maker claims WILL expand at 840 fps. They're not kidding, it does open up just like the pictures. In a 696 you can shoot 200 gr. loads all day without straining the gun or your wrist. Even while a 240 gr slug going 900 fps isn't going to "blow" a Charter Bulldog it will loosen things up in a few years. They're made to carry a lot and shoot a little. If you can find an older Charter that someone has not "hotrodded" with stupid loads they are great carry guns. Unfortunately an awful lot of the ones I see on the market have been rode pretty hard. I believe the 696 was absolutely the best idea S&W has come up for a very long time (and so of course they dumped it) and a 3 in. .44 Spl. snub will get you through the night and won't let you down if you do your part. One interesting load I have been experimenting with is a 190 gr. full wadcutter. They don't penetrate real deep but the terminal effects are spectacular. Getting hit with one is definitely going to get your attention.
 
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Ozzieman

New member
Yea, I’d like a 696 also, very hard to find.
I have a large collection of 44 specials, it’s more like an addiction.
I own a Charter bull dog, great little gun but Rampant Colt is correct on those loads being too hot for the Chater. Penn makes a 200 gr bullet that works well in mine and with that bullet I can safely get 800 without stressing the gun.
I also own a Taurus 445, that gun I would shoot heavier loads but it’s brutal with 240. It’s also not one of the better built guns I have owned.
The big thing is how much are you going to shoot the gun with heavy loads?
If it’s a small number as long as it’s within book suggested loads you’re not going to have any problems, but it will shorten the life span of the guns.
I have owned two Bulldogs, the first one I bought in the early 80’s and it was a used gun, I shot nothing but 240 gr hand loads that were upper book numbers. After about 500 rounds the gun rattled like a can full of bolts. It still shot well but end shake on the cylinder made me retire it.
I also had one of the S&W titanium 5 shot double action only 44 specials (don’t remember the model). It was the nastiest shooting little monster I have ever owned and the only 44 special that I haven’t kept.
If it’s for carry, get the Charter and keep the loads in the 200 Gr weight and you will be happy.
If it’s for the range or just plinking, my suggestion is to wait, save your money and get an S&W 24 or a 21.
Also don’t forget Ruger Blackhawk in 44 special.
http://www.pennbullets.com/44/44200rnfpbb.html
 
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DFrame

New member
624s and Model 24s can be found if you keep looking. They are excellent. I agree about the 696. Probably the best gun S&W has made in years....sigh.
 
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ArkieVol

New member
.44's

Another 44 special fan checking in. You’ve received some very good advice already so I’ll just add a couple of comments.

I hand load and have used 165g, tcfp (good plinker), 180g rnfp (good all around), 185g wc (Penn bullets, nice carry or target load…impressive holes in targets), 200g rnfp, (best all around) and 240g swc’s (not user friendly in short barrels) in a variety of loads in S&W 21, S&W 24, S&W 624, S&W 2.5" 396 Night Guard, Ruger Redhawk, and Charter 44 Bulldog.

FWIW Bought Charter .44spl. Bulldog new in Jan 2012 - sold March 2012.
First trip to factory, locked up three times in first 15 rounds - new cylinder, adjusted. Second trip to factory - new cylinder accepted 44 MAGNUM rounds…loaded and fired by mistake but were hand loads downloaded to 44 special specs (fortunately) - new cylinder.. Third trip to factory - locked up after 2 rounds of Winchester Super X 200g Silvertip factory ammo - new cylinder. Got gun back with third new cylinder, dry fired it out of box, locked up on third pull. Fourth trip was to dealer who refunded my money and sent gun to factory. Factory sent dealer new gun (still for sale in his shop).

I do carry the 396 NG concealed on occasion with either Black Hills 210g rnfp, Win Silvertip 200g jhp, or hand loaded Hornady 240g hp/XTP over 7,9g HS6 (book-750fps). Other guns and loads are for range only. The 396NG is a great lightweight alloy carry gun but S&W only made them for one year and they are about as scarce as the 696.
 
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wilson133

New member
I have a Taurus 431 and a 441 and while they would take the heavier loads, I don't see the point. The difference between 900fps and 800 fps in terms of terminal damage is small at best. Hand gun bullet expansion at less than 1000fps is problematic and you already are going to make a .43" hole anyway. Large caliber wad cutters have a long and well documented history of effective target damage.
 
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drail

Moderator
Handgun bullet expansion at less than 1000 fps USED to be the case across the board (they were so bad that using JHP bullets in a snub was pretty much a joke) but the bullet designers have pretty much solved the problem in the last 15 years. The first attempt to solve the problem was to push lighter bullets at very high velocities. This worked but was very hard on a lot of gun's forcing cones. I really didn't think the Gold Dot would expand well from a 3 in. barrel at 840 fps as claimed but it absolutely does. They have designed the jacket so that it's thinner right where it needs to flex to open up. Fired across a chrono into rows of water filled 1 gal. jugs they all penetrated 3 jugs and stopped inside the fourth. The 1st jug was reduced to shreds. Every slug was fullly expanded and intact. Ballistically this is so close to a .45 ACP's ballistics that I am completely confident in using them for CCW. I remember reading that Browning's original spec for the .45 ACP was going to be a 200 gr @ 900 fps. to get the ballistics the Army wanted. A .44 200 gr. @ 850 (or a little bit more) is a very good defensive load in a snub sized gun. I also worked up a load using a 215 gr. hard cast flat nosed SWC that will achieve 900 fps. without stressing the gun. This might be one of the best loads for a .44 Spl. that I have tested. It will knock a bowling pin off the table like it was hit by a truck.
 
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Nomadicone

New member
Thanks for everyone's input. I think what I want doesn't exist outside the Mod 696. I love the 44 Spl round and want a good double action for self defense and trail gun. Of course I have a 2.5" 41 Mag which will do the job just not in 44 Spl.
 
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RC20

New member
I guess I am getting too old.

I read "short barrel" and that means 4 inch, not 2 inch!

Seems insane to me to have a 2 inch barrel in a 44. The grip is 4 inch, might as well have a 4 inch barrel, but that's an old farts opinion.

I still have a 44 Walker Bulldog. Sadly its 4 inch so even if I chronometer the loads it would not help (though I will now I have a chrono)

2.5 inch 41 magnum! Mine is 6 inch and ......

Ahh well. I do love the 44 though for its purpose and the 41 as well.
 
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drail

Moderator
Taurus and Rossi cranked out a good number of .44 Spl. snubs in the 80s and 90s. They will give you a little more load headroom than the Charter. I worked on some back in the 90s and they were not quite as nice as a S&W but still very usable solid guns. They're out there if you dig. But the Charter is OK if you can find an older one that hasn't been shot much. The Charter is NOT the gun to buy if you plan on taking it to the range to work out with frequently. They are truly just a "carry" gun. I had a buddy with a Lew Horton 3 in. .41 Mag N frame S&W. Now THAT was a carry gun. It would destroy anything. But you better be hanging on tight. You could hit a bowling pin dead center and it would explode into splinters. Nothing else in my collection could do that. With a reduced load though it was a great pin gun and IPSC revolver.
 
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Nomadicone

New member
Ozzieman - I have done the same thing. Ruger has the venue to contact the presiedent but of course I have heard back. I think the Ruger would be a graet platform for a 3" 44 Spl. Maybe we need to contact Lipsey's or someone with more clout. :)
 
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drail

Moderator
I think all of the manufacturers look at the .44 Spl. cartridge and decide there's just not enough market to produce a gun for it. Which isn't really surprising given the way the ammo companies have ignored it for many years.:rolleyes: The .44 Spl has almost become just like the .41 Rem. It's a handloader's game. But what a cartridge it is.
 
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NWPilgrim

New member
It is kind of hard to demonstrate demand to the mfgs when there are no products. Count me in the ghost market fir an affordable 2-4" .44 special. Makes more sense to me than a .357 especially for close in self defense or indoors. I love the .44 mag but for everything but hunting the special does it well without the blast and need for so much steel.
 
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Stephanie B

New member
I think what I want doesn't exist outside the Mod 696.
Click to expand...

They are decent guns, all right.

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I don't think that it would be terribly light to carry, though. According to my postal scale, it weight 37.2 ounces unloaded.
 

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drail

Moderator
Nope, they're not "lightweight" guns. They're an all steel L frame. But they are the best thing I have found in a gun you can carry and practice with all day long. They are very soft shooting revolvers. Even with a moderately hot load (200 to 215 gr @ 900 fps) you just get a big soft push. With a good holster and belt I can (and have) lugged one around all day. The L frame grip fits most people's hands very well and the trigger pulls on most of these guns is very good right out of the box.;)
 
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Jim March

New member
Suggestion: Charter still makes some 4" barrel models. With the right holster that wouldn't be hard to carry. It would give you a better head of steam with any load and will turn the 200gr Gold Dots as loaded in Blazer's brand name into a respectable street stopper.

The 4" variant is the only Charter 44 I'd consider. With that barrel you don't have to flog the thing into scrap to get some decent bullet speeds.
 
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