44-40 PressuretraceII Videos

Savvy_Jack

New member
Over the past few years I conducted 83 ten shot tests using the PressureTraceII system. Recently I decided to try and open up a comparison chart using overlays in the Gimp editing software.

It is not the best but I think it is certainly good enough for discussions.

It took me a while to satisfy myself as to the accuracy, but with the discovery of a few missing links, in general, everything is 100% consistent with reloading manuals and factory ammunition.

Rather than do one video at a time, once or so a week, I decided to dump a few all at one time. Check the website link below for updates.

https://sites.google.com/view/44win...sure-testing/pressure-trace-videos?authuser=0
 

reddog81

New member
Wow. Those videos are nice. I’ve never shot much less reloaded that cartridge but those videos are worth watching just to see how those powders behave.
 

Savvy_Jack

New member
I may be adding a few more in the next few weeks.

With all the pressure testing that has been done over the past few years, I decided to conduct at least 8 more tests. With what we do have now, there is enough data to show a relative linage between CUP and PSI now for the 44-40. We still have a few missing links that could use some closure.

I tried to simplify what I have done the best I could in the following charts. These charts are always subject to updates based on better and more reliable data and are subject to change without notice.

They can be seen here: Click the tabs at the bottom of the charts.



For years I have seen reports to indicate that the 44 High Velocity loads produced 22,000cup. However, this February 14th, 1917 document below may indicate otherwise. It looks as if the WRA Cartridge Engineering Office documented 18,000cup service pressures and 23,500cup Proof Pressures. Looking at cartridge examples from the Draw Set to late production, the only component that looks to have changed is the primer. The WRA "Balloon Pocket" appears to be the same through the late 1930's. The powder charge dropped from 20gr down to 13.9 in some examples while the velocities advertised an increase. From 1,500fps in 1903, to 1,564 by 1925 and to 1,570fps by 1938.

This also shows the earliest documentation, I have seen, that the normal loads have a service pressure of 13,000cup and a Proof Pressure of 16,500cup. Keep in mind that these normal loads used between 13gr and 17gr of Dupont No. 2 rifle powder since 1895 and was used until 1925, thus this Service Pressure directly relates to this particular powder and load for this cartridge. Black powder was still offered during this time and the document does not stated any difference between black powder and smokeless powder loads. Certainly with the information therein, they are referring to smokeless loads.

Simply put, Winchester loaded their cartridges to Service Pressure loads, but over time they seem to downgrade performance.

Below, Sharp's "Sharpshooter Powder" handloading data does not indicate a "max" load but lists loads that exceed 13,000cup as well as 18,000cup loads. Loads with a Service Pressure of 13,000cup are listed but pressures not noted. Load pressures of 14,000cup and higher are listed and noted. Winchester started using Sharpshooter powder in 1903 for their 44 WHV loads but switched from Dupont No. 2 to Sharpshooter by 1926 for all 44-40 smokeless loads.

Testing the following Sharpshooter (photo 1) , and in other charts (photos 2 and 3) Dupont No. 2, will not be easy and several obstacles could hinder accurate results. Cases used will be period cases but new primers will be used as well as the Winchester bullets where needed.

With the above tests results, if successful, the below charts can be updated to give even better data and cup/psi comparisons. Hopefully we can get a better idea what the 1914 era HV loads actually produced.

Details and more photos can be seen here

And here, click the links at the bottom of the screen
 

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RoyceP

New member
I think what you are doing is very interesting. The pressures generated by black powder VS smokeless - dispelling old myths is hard but you have clearly succeeded.
 

Savvy_Jack

New member
The 44-40 Google Docs "Pressure" Page has been updated to reflect the 3 new tests 1A, 2A&2B (re-tests for "control"), and test 90. I also updated a few other items by including the 1917 WRA data and highlighting Lyman's max loads that were previously tested. I will update other items as well as dates etc. the week of the 20th.

44-40 Chamber Pressure Test Results Update
 

Doug Lee

New member
Hello All, and thanks Savvy_Jack for the post . . .
can you provide a link to the Pressure Trace software source?
Thanks,
Doug Lee
*
 

stagpanther

New member
I have a pressure trace system, my first reaction was "how is that guy getting a good strain gauge position over the chamber on his barrels?" I was imagining whacky drill-outs on vintage revolvers and rifles--but then I saw you actually set up a test-barrel--nice job!

My system comes with a catch that I can expect an error margin of up to 2,500 psi depending upon things like gauge position and the expansion characteristics of the steel used in the barrel.

I quickly learned that pandering skills are extremely important; if I called certain ammo manufacturer(s) and drew the conversation out long enough with the adequate assurances if I blow myself up isn't anybody's fault but my own--I occasionally got their test results that I could then use as a reliable calibration measurement.
 

Savvy_Jack

New member
Here is a few photos of the barrel
 

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Jack,

Nice job with the test setup. What I've done for .45 Auto and other pistol rounds is to buy them a barrel for my TC Encore and gauge that. It has worked out well. I mention this not because it is better than a dedicated fixture but because a lot of folks reading the thread will have Contenders or Encores and may not be up to building a special fixture.
 

Savvy_Jack

New member
Thanks Unclenick,

Yes, a Contender would be better!!
I would love to have had a Contender with a 44-40 barrel. I thought of that back when I first started but even then the cost was too much for me. I now have a co-worker who owns a Contender and I thought about getting a barrel and using his frame as well as test stuff for him for his 44 Mag. Still tempting but I hope to be finished after this next round of tests....especially since the cost of everything has skyrocketed. We'll see how that works out for me...LOL

The fixture is actually a Hyskore rifle rest that I modified (no cutting), that I picked up cheap.
https://hyskore.com/products/30185-black-gun-machine-rest/

The barrel is just a basic MGM barrel clamped on a piece of flat stock steel plate with aluminum bicycle handlbar clamps. I welded up the blast plate myself as well as made the firing pin plate. I think I got the barrel cut and blued from MGM for $75, can't remember exactly. Not sure how I managed that one.
 

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Savvy_Jack

New member
I really enjoyed this test.

I acquired two full boxes of Winchester Red Label smokeless Dupont No. 2 charged cartridges dated 1914. These are WRA headstamped with a large balloon pocket. I took 13 of the best looking cartridges and dissected them. I replaced the 1W primers with modern small pistol primers and replaced the LRNFP bullets with 200gr JSP. I recharged each cartridge with 17gr of the wonderful smelling Dupont No. 2 powder.

The following pressure curves show a slow burn rate, slower than black powder loads during that time, and more consistent. The velocities are a bit slower than advertised. Peak pressure is also lower than the original replicated black powder charges, as published data has indicated.

Very consistent for a 100 year old powder.
 

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Savvy_Jack

New member
There is just too much information for me to repost it all here, especially since there is only a link for photographs.

For those that are somewhat following the progress, I have updated the Pressure Testing page of the 44-40 website with a large selection of test result charts to compare.

The test results prove that early smokeless powders used by Winchester produced less pressures than original black powder loads. They also prove that the 44-40 ballistics was greatly reduced by the 1970's.

Black powders of today create less pressure than those of the originals and sends the wrong message about pressure comparisons for modern smokeless loads.

I have created a 44-40 Pressure Timeline for those interested.

I have also updated the 44-40 google docs pages with the Recent Pressure Test Results, also for those interested in understanding the myths of this cartridge's performance of yesteryear vs today.

If you visit the google docs page, make sure you look at all of the data by select all of the tabs at the bottom of the chart window.
 
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Savvy_Jack

New member
The bad news is that I was not precise with my aim while performing the tests. The good news is that, even so....look what we got with 100 year old powder, .4255" JSP bullets in a 20" barrel, .429" bore with a 1:20" twist @ 50 yards

3.4", 10 shot group
 

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Savvy_Jack

New member
I have added two .gif files here and to the website that show a great comparison of the smokeless vs black powder pressure curves as tested.
 

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