.44 1851 navy load question

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sterno

New member
Let me make this disclaimer right now - I've never shot a black powder gun before. I'm very familiar with modern firearms, firearm safety, and handloading. I know basically how the BP guns work.

I recieved a 1851 colt army .44 pistol made by Pietta for my birthday. It was one of those packs that come with eveything excpet powder and percussion caps. I got some caps but before I get some powder, Maybe y'all could clear up some questions I have...

1 - Is pyrodex safer/better than black powder?
2 - does the .44 use .454 balls?
3 - what kind of load should I use to start (by volume)?
4 - what kind of accuracy should I expect from this pistol?

I'm really excited to shoot this thing! I've been looking for an excuse to get into BP and cowboy action and now I've got it!
 
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timothy75

New member
Pyrodex is less likely to ignite during shipment and handling and such. I'd start with 454 balls and #10 caps. Start with between 25-30grs powder, 30 will give around 827fps. Accuracy is kind of subjective but look for 3-4 inches standing at 15 yards. So yes, yes, 25, 3''. Good luck, oh and dont shoot the gun from a rest or it will catch fire.
 
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Hafoc

New member
All I know about substitutes is what I've read.

The hard-core types are going to tell you nothing is better than Holy Black. But as Timothy 75 said, Pyrodex is safer to ship. That's the main driving force behind Pyrodex. As far as I can tell (and it's the only substitute I've actually used) it doesn't have any advantage over black powder, except that it's easier to get. More places carry it since shipping and storing it is less of a legal hassle.

I'm going to try American Pioneer Powder fairly soon. It's another black powder substitute. It claims to work with smokeless powder lubrication-- black powder lubes not needed, in fact not advised-- and they claim it will clean up with just water, and not much of that. It might be worth looking at.

The cap and ball revolvers I had were reasonably tolerant of different loads. I would ram the ball down on top of the powder, and I could use anything up to a full chamber without danger. Most of my friends who shot them said that 20 grains in a .44 was a good starting point for target work. They would also fill the space in front of the powder, beneath the ball, with corn meal or some other filler to prevent there being an air space- air spaces are bad, I understand; in any case, I always tried to avoid them.

From the pictures some of the people have posted here, you can get fine practical accuracy out of these pistols. I mean mankilling shots at 20, 25 yards; good Civil War battlefield accuracy. The revolver will probably work better with one particular load, which you'll find by experimenting with it. The sights on an 1851-style revolver are rudimentary. You're not going to get pinpoint target accuracy with them. Yet some people here have shot groups good enough to earn MY respect and envy, for what that's worth. :D
 
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mec

New member
American Pioneer and Goex Pinnacle are a bit less energetic than pyrodex or real black powder. they do clean up very easily. I've found pinnacle to be somewhat erratic in the velocity department meaning that you will be happier if you don't have a chronograph and accuracy will probably not be quite as good as you would get wity pyrodex or black. You may find that the .451 diameter balls will be a tight fit in your revolver- pietta chambers are a little tighter than ubertis, and would put just a little less stress on your frame and loading lever than .454 or .457.
If you have a brass framed revolver, it will help to avoid heavy loads or putting a lot of force into play seating the balls. the loads mentioned above should be fine.
 
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Big Marsh

New member
Hafoc says, "All I know about substitutes is what I've read."

There are NO substitutes for the Holy Black!!;)
 
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Hafoc

New member
Big Marsh-- I just KNEW that Your Kind was out there reading this. Thank you for affirming my faith in.. well, your faith. :D

Sterno, since my experience is mostly with black powder, it would be 20 grains weight and volume both. However, substitutes are made to replace black powder by volume, not by weight.
 
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mec

New member
"So is that 20 grains by weight or volume?"

Same thing. If a measure is graduated for 20 grains of black powder, you use the same measure for pyrodex. The pyrodex will weigh less but it doesn't matter . Twenty grains of fffg is the same as twenty grains by volume of fffg
Use the exact same measure setting, spout or scoop to measure the pyrodex p so that it takes up the same amount of space as the fffg and it doesn't matter what it weighs on a scale.

Also doesn't matter if your loading method doesn't measure exactly to the tenth grain or even the half grain. Black powder and pyrodex are not critical in that regard.
 
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gmatov

Moderator
I'll add that BP and subs are not critical to FIVE grains, except that in full loads another 5 will not fit, can't get the ball below the face of the cylinder, so can't turn it even to load the next chamber.

I would reccommend against the APP. It is NOT a very good powder, stinks, NOT BP smell, and sub par velocities.

Mec's posted FPS show that. WAY lower.

Again, a weighed 30 gr charge of BP, REAL BP, and a measure that is adjusted to hold 30 grs of REAL BP, will hold 30 grs BY VOLUME, of all the other powders. BAR NONE. The only caveat is that 777 is supposed to be 15% hotter, so you GOTS to reduce it, if you think you are shooting too hot. Normally speaking, you should be able to shoot the same VOLUME of 777, BUT, do not be surprised if it is a little more authoritative than the same charge of the other powders, always excepting APP.

Think I am going from here to Cabela's to buy a chronograph. Getting tired of just saying this or that with no kind of authority. Apparently Mec is the only person on ANY of these forums who HAS one. Everybody else just assumes they are cracking out 1800 FPS.

Cheers,

George
 
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gmatov

Moderator
Mec,

I don't know if your last was directed at me, but I DID leave the site and go to Cabela's, and all the chronys were back ordered. I WILL get one, as soon as they free up.

Ransom Rest is another buy I would like to make, or make my own, somehow. Take the pipple out of the equation. I KNOW these things can shoot better than WE can.

Cheers,

George
 
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mec

New member
I was agreeing with you on that point. Ransom rests are good but there is still some skill envolved in using them. Ralph Talbot, former president of the texas state rifle association is the official gun tester for Tenring Precision
ralph.jpg

He had the people at camp bullis build a massive concrete pyramid on the already concrete shooting pad to mount this one.
 
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gmatov

Moderator
Mec,

I thought you were agreeing with me, but was not sure it WAS directed at me.

I would still like to have both a chrony AND a rest. More or less take the people thing out of it.

You, f'rinstance, have a lot of "offhand" posts in your book. I think if you were shooting off the bench, in all situations, it would be better, and if you could shoot them ALL off a rest, even better. Mechanical ability of the pistols, not "I can hold closer than you can, even one-handed".

Actually, there have been modern shooters, whose names I will have to research, who HAVE shot better groups than machine rests can hold. I think Massad Ayoub is one, but could be wrong.

Cheers,

George
 
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mec

New member
Actually, bench shooting would be better except that I jut like shooting 0ff hand. there are a lot of people who can shoot off hand better than I can so I'm not really showing off. Its an odd thing to do when reporting on gun accuracy but then normal is only the half a word that comes after dull.
Another excuse: I have access to one range with steady shooting benches and measured distances. It is often crowded and not user friendly for a lot of black powder fiddling that tends to monopolize the facility. Much of what we do takes place at a more primitive range and in a pasture where the steadiest available rest might be a mesquite tree.
Ayoob has a theory that His best three out of five shots from a bench rest are about what you can expect to produce from a ransom rest with a full five shot group. He shoots three from the steadiest bench position he can get and then tosses out the two widest hits.
Once his editor, Cameron Hopkins said that he thought this theory was a bunch of hooey. So Ayoob and their ransom rest specialist did a little test. It turned out that Ayoob's best three out of five were actually a bit closer together than a five shot group from a ransom rest.
 
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gmatov

Moderator
Mec,

Ayoob's not the only one. Doing a search on Ransom rests, this PM (I don't want one, they go like 400 and up, and 40+ per grip style ) I think on Colt1911.com, another "expert" said similar.

I don't know if it would pertain to our revolvers ad much as to HIS 1911s and any other semi. They close up in a different manner when held mechanically than in a "resilient" fist.

The man says he will shoot less than 4 inches hand held, and not hit the paper with a rest, and that at 50 yds. Do a search for Ransom Rest, and go to the 3rd or 4th page, Colt1911.com. Interesting.

I am not criticisizing your "offhand shooting". We all shoot off the bench to zero, then shoot offhand in real life. You might take a rest against a tree to help, but you still shoot more offhand than off abench, unless ALL you do, as I do, is shoot off the bench, or a little offhand at the same range I have shot at since, and I just found my first pin, 1967.

DO NOT think you are going to shoot 1 1/2 inch freehand when you get the pistol to shoot that off the bench. 3 inch, you should be happy as a pig in ****(Just found one of the words you can't say, that would be a "pig in its own dung" )

Hell, I shoot 6 inches at 25 freehand, I am happy. I can do no better with much more expensive pistols, with much more expensive ammo. Think I need more practice, or better glasses.

Cheers,

George
 
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