4" barrel .357 defense load question

[Micahweeks]

I know people swear by the 125 grain JHPs for a defense round. I grew up on the heavier stuff, though, the 158 grain. How does the 158gr JHP do as a defense round? I know we used to take whitetail and hog with it, so it's got punch, but is it just to hot/heavy to carry for defense?

I've carried 125s many times, but I just like the way 158 shoots better and have a ton of it from hunting. I just want know if there's an unofficial "rule" out there that will get me crossed eyed looks if I throw it in my CC gun.

 

[Webleymkv]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with 158gr bullets for defensive use in a .357 Magnum. Both the Remington and Federal 158gr SJHP loadings are excellent defensive choices as are the slightly lighter Winchester 145gr Silvertip and Corbon 140gr JHP.

 

[Nanuk]

My favorite 158 JHP in a 357 is the Remington followed by the Federal. MY carry load was 145 STHP when i carried a 357 wheelie for LE.

 

[WESHOOT2]

The 158g choices offer increased chance for through-and-throughs; bad.

The 140g XTP-HP might be a suitable 'middle ground'.






But in MY 357 revolvers I load a 125g JHP for people, a 158g and 180g JHP for deer and black bear.
Or a 187g WFN.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If I was out for a new .357 magnum load I'd get the Buffalo Bore BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE HEAVY 357 Mag.

140 gr. Barnes XPB

1519 fps—S&W MT Gun, 4 inch barrel
1436 fps—S&W mod 66, 3 inch barrel
1385 fps—S&W mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel

Yes and I bet it is an interesting load to control!

Perfect for my S&W 28-2 4 inch Highway Patrolman revolver.

But in the 2.5 inch Combat Magnum it would hurt!

Deaf

 

[Nick_C_S]

My thoughts on this have changed over time. I used to think the 125's were the way to go. I used to be focused on expansion. But these days, I'm leaning toward the "you must first make a hole" camp.

I winter carry my 3" bbl 357 (S&W 686+). In it, is Speer 158 GDHP's. It's too big to summer carry due to light clothing and lack of concealment (I'm in sunny California). But if I did, I'd probably switch to 125's. The thought process being that I would want the 158's for more penetration to get through heavy winter attire. But the extra penetration probably wouldn't be necessary in the summer.

I'm also thinking that the 140's may be a good compromise.

 

[zxcvbob]

I carry a 4" .357 most of the time; sometimes I carry a little .380 when a big revolver is not practical. I like 158 grain soft lead .38 Special hollow points -- IMHO they're about perfect without all the sound and fury of the .357 JHP. The .357 might do a marginally better job, but it comes at a price (I'm not talking about money)

I've never shot anybody, so take my advice for what little it's worth

 

[Wyosmith]

Back in the 70s when most cops carried revolvers I was one of them that did too. I carried a 6”-28 S&W in uniform. I carried a 45 Colt Combat commander off duty and in plane cloths. As a deputy I never had to fire a shot, so I am only relaying information I know from other sources on this particular issue.

I carried 140 grain HPs in my S&W. Looking back I probably should have carried 125s in the gun. The 125s were the bullets most Sheriff's and Chief's liked because they were very effect, and they also didn't have the super penetration that the 158 SP and HP had.

The only thing “wrong” with the 158 is that they don’t stop in a man. I think they are better for hunting than they are for police work.

So for urban use I believer the 125 would be better. For all around use in rural places the old 158 is a very good choice.

 

[Nick_C_S]

zxcvbob: ". . . sound and fury. . ."

^^ Struck me as funny. ^^

It's a good point though.

 

[Micahweeks]

How much thicker is a human being than a medium sized hog? I ask because I've shot hogs with both the .38 and .357 lead hollow points and have never had a through and through. I got a through and through once on a deer, but that wasn't from a revolver. It was from a lever gun. The bullet was about 15 yards behind and to the right of the deer. I'm not even sure that was a 158 grain. It may have been a 180 since we've used those in lever guns pretty often. Is the 158 grain lead hollow point really that hard a penetrator?

 

[Water-Man]

The 158gr have a tendency to over-penetrate. The 125gr have more recoil and muzzle blast. The 145gr Win. Silvertips are a decent alternative.

 

[Sarge]

I've reviewed shootings with all the major defense calibers using supposed expanding ammunition and been present for a few. I recall a good-sized lad who took three 147 grain Hydra Shocks through the boiler room and into the wall behind. Every one of these 'shot through' folks was headed for ER, ICU and/or the slab. So I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing and certainly as nothing to fret over.

From: FBI 10mm Notes
SSA Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy, Quantico, VA

Aren’t you afraid of over-penetration?

The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created
back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public
resistance to the use of hollow point ammunition. In the process, we
began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any
successful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due
to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous
instances of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not
penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you
examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject
somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of the shots fired
never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them -
only the ones that might “over penetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our
testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for
shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and
then penetrate like full metal jacketed ammunition. We are aware of
successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a
shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will
do that.

To the original question- IMO the advances in bullet technology have made the 158 grain 357 an entirely viable defensive round, with bullets like the 158 grain XTP offering terminal performance on par with old-school 125's- and better terminal penetration to boot. Underwood, for example, markets a load that produced the following from a 4" Ruger GP100-

Impact velocity: 1,490 fps
Penetration: 14.1"
Retained weight: 141.5 gr
Max expansion: 0.704"
Min Expansion: 0.579"

What more could you want from an all around 357 load?

 

[JD0x0]

The 158g choices offer increased chance for through-and-throughs; bad.

Unless your grandmother is standing behind the BG, this is a good thing. I would prefer an exit wound on my defense round. Putting a .358+ cal hole(over .50cal exit wound, depending on the bullet) in the BG would certainly be discouraging to the threat IMO. It would cause faster bleed out than if you made the same hole, but not deep enough to penetrate through. A miss is worse than a through and through, if someone is behind your target. You should know what's beyond and behind your target either way.
Just my $.02

Also +1 to this...

Aren’t you afraid of over-penetration?

The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created
back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public
resistance to the use of hollow point ammunition. In the process, we
began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any
successful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due
to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous
instances of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not
penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you
examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject
somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of the shots fired
never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them -
only the ones that might “over penetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our
testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for
shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and
then penetrate like full metal jacketed ammunition. We are aware of
successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a
shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will
do that.

 

[amd6547]

Lots of people recommend the Winchester 145gn Silvertip load....
Unfortunately, it seems impossible to find. Even before the current ammo crunch, I saw one box for sale in the last five years.

 

[riverratt]

This is a story from my mom (who was a paramedic) toled me when i first got my carry pemit. It comes from a friend of hers that was on the drug response team (i guess the swat of our small town).

Back in the early 90s her friend was on a drug raid, they split up into 2 man teams to clear the house. He had a 4" .357 with 125gr gold dot his partner had a 12ga with 00 buck. Apon entering a room a man with a gun stood up and drew on my moms friend. My moms friend shot the man in the chest, he was unfazed, the officer then fired the last five rounds. Three shots in the torso two in shoulder and arm, total five hits, man was still tring to shoot the officers. Friends parner then ended it with 12ga.

My mom toled me this story then added on other events that she had encounterd from other gunshot victoms she had mad runs on. Her basic idea was (and still is after 25 years) that there is NO one shot stop without affecting cns.

In conclution i personally only use heavy for calber rounds. My reasoning for this is that it wont do any good if the bullet does not have enough energy to break or othewise damage the spine enough to incompsitat the attacker after dumping its energy early durring penatration.

All that said there is a time for lite bullets i do keep them for home deffense to minumise the chance of going through the walls and harming my kids. Just incase they are not in ttheir room at the time. This is just my personal belief so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[kraigwy]

40 years ago today, March 8, 1974, I went to work for the Anchorage Police Dept. They issued brand new 4 in Model 28s. Still have it, the Dept gave it to me when I retired (twenty years ago today).

At the time the ammo they issued was 158 gn round nose 38's, cast and loaded by jail trustees.............

Ummm, no thanks. I bought a LSWC mold (Lyman 358477), 150 gr LSWC. Stuffed 14.5 gr of 2400 and never looked back.

Later they issued 125 Gn Winchester HPs, I didn't like them, I went back to my Lyman bullet.

I've shot everything from rabbits/deer to moose/buffalo with this bullet. Liked it so well I use it in 38s in my 642. Had to put down a horse with that little gun/bullet combo.

Now days the Lyman bullet and my Model 28 is regulated to shooting bowling pins. Tried the Lyman 358665 because it loads faster with speed loaders but it isn't near as effective as the SWC on pins.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Been thinking about that kraigwy.

I really like my Speed Six and I bet if I got some 158gr LSWHP slugs, carefully handloaded it with Unique or 2400, sealed the primers and case mouth, I could come up with great SD loads that duplicate the FBI .38 load and cost so much less than factory wonder loads.

Court defensible? Just point out the major companies make the same loads for self defense and you just duplicated it. And point out that in duplicating it the cost was so much less you got to practice with the same loads thus it was also a safety issue.

Deaf

 

[Sarge]

Hell just point out the Ammo Famine of 2013-14. You can't just walk in any sporting goods emporium and buy a box of ammo anymore.

 

[Micahweeks]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I think, and I stress "think," I have may have found a factory load that's pretty close to my hunting round but a little less zippy.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/17...oint-gas-check-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding

What do you guys think? Seems like I get something that looks like my favorite bullet type but a couple of hundred fps slower, so it should be less penetration. I think my .357 ones move just at or barely under 1400 fps. Input?

 

[Webleymkv]

I notice that many cite overpenetration as a reason not to use 158gr .357 Magnum ammo. While this may be a problem with some 158gr loadings (Federal 158gr Hydrashok and Speer 158gr Gold Dot come to mind) it isn't necessarily with others. Take, for example, this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqS3ixj-NtQ&list=PL858978D90283EA35&index=15

Just over 13" penetration and slightly over .65" expanded diameter seems just about perfect to me. The thing about powerful cartridges like .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, .41 Magnum, and .44 Magnum is that for defense, you really don't need the latest high tech bullet. These cartridges have enough horsepower to throw a heavy enough bullet fast enough to reliably expand even with very dated JHP designs.

The reason that I like the Remington loading from that video (it's my .357 Magnum load of choice) is that the combination of a dead soft lead nose a reasonably high velocity makes it expand very reliably. In my own informal testing, I've gotten that same loading to expand to the point of jacket separation in a box of bone dry tool catalogs.

The reason that newer bullet designs often aren't preferable in a .357 Magnum is that, IMHO, they're too tough (they're engineered this way to avoid fragmentation) and thus don't expand as aggressively as we'd like. What has been overlooked when designing these bullets is that a .357 Magnum has enough raw power that moderate fragmentation really isn't a problem so long as a heavy enough bullet is used. A 158gr .357" bullet has enough weight and cross-sectional density to penetrate adequately even after some moderate fragmentation and a full power Magnum loading provides it with enough velocity to expand very reliably.