.38 Super in a .38 spl.

[velocette]

Sunday at the range, a shooter was shooting a S&W steel J frame .38 spl. revolver using .38 Super ammo.
When questioned about it, his reply was that it was just fine. When advised that the .38 Super was a high pressure round (Saami 36,500 psi+) and the .38 spl. was a 17,000 ~ 20,000 psi round, his comment was to mind my own business. Which I did and stayed well away from him. Worth noting, the .38 super is Saami rated at higher pressure than the .357 magnum.
That little snubbie was sure barking loud!

Roger

 

[carguychris]

You can't fix stupid.

 

[LE-28]

He'll be the next one to join a forum complaining that his pistol blew up and it's all someone else's fault.

 

[WC145]

I have a S&W 360J scandium frame snubby that was chambered for .38spl from the factory. Per S&W, it uses the same frame as the M&P 360 .357mag and there is no difference between the .357mag and .38spl cyls except the chamber. I had the gun rechambered to 9mm by Pinnacle, it will also shoot 9x23 Winchester, .38 Super, 356TSW, .38ACP, 9mm Largo, etc. I've been shooting mostly 9mm through it for almost 5 years with no ill effects.

The modern (last 20 years or so) steel and scandium J frames are very strong, holding up not only to the the .357mag, but in the case of the 940PC, the 356TSW.

 

[Hal]

Tell someone in authority.

In years gone by, I would have just put away my stuff and left.
Too much has changed though.

One idiot doing something stupid has a domino effect on the rest of us.
His stupidity could result in the range being closed, higher prices on guns and ammunition to compensate for the frivolous law suit he'd file if his gun blew up, medical costs for some bystander injured, etc, etc, etc, the list goes on and on.

You can't fix stupid.

While I like the catchy phrase,,,,,
I don't believe it's accurate.
Stupid - as in stupid actions - can indeed be fixed.

How?


By doing everything we can to make sure the stupid party is the one that suffers from those actions and not the rest of us.

 

[CWKahrFan]

never mind

 

[James K]

The .38 ACP/Super was based on the .38 S&W cartridge and usually won't fit into a .38 Special/.357 Magnum chamber, but specs overlap so sometimes it is possible to fire a .38 Super in a .38 Special chamber. With most most modern revolvers, no damage will result.

Worse, though, is that .38 Super will fit and fire in many of the old revolvers chambered for .38 S&W. And that can and very probably will result in a wrecked gun and possible injury.

Jim

 

[SaxonPig]

The late Skeeter Skelton wrote that he had fired 38 Super ammo in a 357 Magnum revolver so chambering seems possible. Of course, 38 Super chamber pressures used to be much higher than current 38 Special.

Yes, I said used to be.

For decades Super ammo was loaded in nickel cases to make them different from the brass cases used for the old but dimensionally identical 38 ACP. Super ammo was also stamped +P by ammo makers. The 38 ACP propelled a 130 grain bullet at about 1050 FPS and max pressure for the 38 ACP is 26,500 PSI. The Super used the same bullet at 1280 FPS at 36,500 PSI.

A few years ago I noticed that new Super ammo came in brass cases. When I clocked the new stuff I got about 1080 FPS. This is 200 FPS below the original Super velocity and barely above the 38 ACP level. I suspect that although the SAAMI max remains 36,500 the Super has been down loaded to around 27,000 PSI.

Also consider that in 1974 SAAMI arbitrarily reduced the max pressure for the 38 Special. I think it's now 20,500 but it used to be (IIRC) 22,500 or 23,000 PSI. This was done for legal reasons and not because the guns got weaker.

So I am guessing that while current factory 38 Super ammo is at a higher pressure than a 38 Special, it's not nearly as much higher as you might think, and the guns will take more than SAAMI now suggests. Instead of being 16,000 over, it's more like 3,000-4,000 PSI. Probably still a bad idea to shoot Supers in a 38 revolver, but then again, that rude guy at the range seemed to be getting away with it. If I lack scientific evidence, I consider real world observation.

I still wouldn't recommend it, but shooting current manufactured Supers through a good quality 38 revolver likely isn't quite as death defying as it may seem at first glance.

Of course, if anyone has proof that modern 38 Super ammo is still loaded to 36,500 PSI then my theory goes out the window.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

There is absolutely NO WAY I would shoot 9 X 23 in a "J" frame gun. That is insanely dangerous! Because it fits, does not mean you should do it.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

James K-
I just dropped a Winchester silvertip .38 Super round easily into a:
3rd model Colt Dick Spl.
2nd model Colt Cobra
S&W model 10
S&W model 37
S&W model 60
Charter Undercover .38
Eig copy of an early S&W model 36
Basically every .38 splg gun I own. The Super WAS a little tight in the Eig chamber.

 

[Hammerhead]

.38 Super ammo will fit in all my .357 revolvers, but won't quite squeeze into a model 10 .38 spl or a .357 Handi rifle.

I fired 3 rounds of Super in a .357 T/C Contender. It shot fine, but extraction was very tough. That was enough to convince me not to try it in a revolver.

Some people (like me) like to experiment a bit with firearms. As long as we accept the risks and don't endanger others, I don't see a problem.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I have a S&W 360J scandium frame snubby that was chambered for .38spl from the factory. Per S&W, it uses the same frame as the M&P 360 .357mag and there is no difference between the .357mag and .38spl cyls except the chamber. I had the gun rechambered to 9mm by Pinnacle, it will also shoot 9x23 Winchester, .38 Super, 356TSW, .38ACP, 9mm Largo, etc. I've been shooting mostly 9mm through it for almost 5 years with no ill effects.

.38 Super, 9x23 Winchester and 9mm largo are ALL longer than 9mm Parabellum. If your revolver was properly chambered for 9mm Parabellum, you would not be able to close the cylinder with any of those more powerful rounds in it.

Further, since 9mm Parabellum is a tapered, rimless cartridge, if the chambers are long enough to accept 9x23 and .38 Super you should not be able to shoot 9mm Parabellum, because the rounds would sit so far forward that the firing pin couldn't reach the primers.

 

[RickB]

The .38 ACP/Super was based on the .38 S&W cartridge and usually won't fit into a .38 Special/.357 Magnum chamber, but specs overlap so sometimes it is possible to fire a .38 Super in a .38 Special chamber. With most most modern revolvers, no damage will result.

OAL
.38 S&W: 1.16"
.38 ACP : 1.265"

Case
.38 S&W: .754"
.38 ACP : .900"

Rim Dia.
.38 S&W: .44"
.38 ACP : .405"

Bullet Dia.
.38 S&W: .361"
.38 ACP: .355"

 

[BigD_in_FL]

Given enough time, Mr. Murphy WILL take care of this

 

[mehavey]

Ignorance is oft curable.
Stupidity is inevitably terminal.

Too bad that he'll likely injure someone else in the process.


.

 

[carguychris]

I have a S&W 360J scandium frame snubby that was chambered for .38spl from the factory. Per S&W, it uses the same frame as the M&P 360 .357mag and there is no difference between the .357mag and .38spl cyls except the chamber.

Your gun has the 1996 and later scandium-aluminum alloy "J Magnum" frame.

The other shooter seen by the OP was using a steel frame .38Spl S&W, and it's unclear whether the OP knows the gun's vintage. Older steel J's are not necessarily equal to the newer guns in terms of strength.

 

[James K]

Hi, RickB,

Your numbers are correct, except you left out the case head diameter, which is the critical factor both as to the .38 S&W being the base cartridge for the .38 ACP and the latter chambering in a .38 Special chamber. Both the .38 S&W and the .38 ACP run about .385 base, while the .38 Special is about .379.

But when Browning first began experimenting with a .38 caliber pistol, the .38 Special did not exist, so his base cartridge was the .38 S&W (his base for the .32 ACP was the .32 S&W, and the .32 ACP will fire in many revolvers chambered for .32 S&W). He had a hard time getting the rimmed cartridges to feed, so he kept cutting the rim down until they fed OK, resulting in the semi-rimmed case. The .38 ACP is longer than the .38 S&W to prevent its use in a .38 S&W revolver with a chamber throat, but many of the old break top revolvers chambered for the .38 S&W have chambers drilled straight through and cylinders long enough to accept the .38 ACP/Super, so they will accept and fire .38 Super.

I have seen the same info SaxonPig reports but, like him, I am not sure and prefer to err on the side of caution.

Jim

 

[WC145]

Aguilar Blanca- The chambers in my gun are cut to 9x23 and it requires moonclips for headspacing and extraction. Check the Pinnacle Guns website, Mark Hartshorne has been doing these conversions for years.

 

[Quincunx]

Given enough time, Mr. Murphy WILL take care of this.

My thought was that Mr. Darwin might get the assignment.

 

[Dc777]

My buddy ran out of bullets at the camp two seasons ago and he stumbled across some .308's that someone left up there. He put one in his 30-06 and it fired... He wasn't injured, but that doesn't mean that you should try it. I look at what the stamp on a barrel says, and that's the only ammo the gun gets. If the guy told me to mind my own business I dang sure would have gotten ahod of the range officer. I mind my business at the range and don't usually talk to people about stuff unless it is a young kid that seems to be struggling or if someone asks me something, but if it comes to safety or my local range being hit with a lawsuit I will dang sure open my mouth and get the problem taken care of ( the right way, not te pistol whipping way)