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38 Short Colt recipes ?
- Thread starter jski
- Start date
TruthTellers
New member
That doesn't matter when it's being shot in a .357 Magnum chambered firearm. When it comes to shooting these super short revolver ammo and loading for it and getting peak performance it requires a lot of attention to make sure you're safe, but so long as one is shooting this in a .357 Magnum and the pressure of a .38 Short Colt handload doesn't exceed max SAAMI spec for .357, then there's no problem.Plus the COL is 0.031" longer, leaving even more space under the bullet. Too bad the peak pressure rating is only about 40% that of the 9 mm.
The reason the peak pressure is so low is because these .38 Shorts can be shot in .38 Long Colt revolvers and we wouldn't want any .38 Short ammo loaded to near .357 Mag pressures being shot in those .38 LC revolvers, so SAAMI plays it safe and keeps the pressure artificially low.
It's the same thing with loading .38 Special cases to above +P data and intending them only to be shot in .357 revolvers.
TruthTellers
New member
Yeah, I would use a starting 9mm load for a near equal bullet weight and see what results you get. Of course pay attention to seating depth as the bullet you use in the .38 may need to be seated deeper than a typical 9mm bullet and compress the charge.Interesting! This is Starline brass:
9mm: 0.748 - 0.754 O.A.L.
38 Short Colt: 0.754 - 0.761 O.A.L.
The result being the 38 Short Colt actually has slightly greater case capacity than the 9mm.
That makes me think about using 9mm data.
That's always my biggest fear with loading: seating a bullet too deep.
Here’s a FortuneCookie45LC video comparing cartridge efficiency between the 38 Short Colt and the 38 Special.
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so SAAMI plays it safe and keeps the pressure artificially low.
Much as I hate to defend SAAMI about their pressure limits, you've got it exactly backwards.
SAAMI isn't keeping the pressure artificially low in this case, you are wanting to jack it up artificially HIGH.
You want to load the .38 short case to .357 magnum pressures, for use in a .357 Magnum gun, ok, its your gun, your ammo, and your business. Though I do wonder why on Earth you would do it. Is it because the short case loads and unloads a fraction of a second faster (in a DA revolver)???
I don't see what possible use that would be, and since we aren't at the end times just yet, and real .357 & .38 Special brass is available, I don't know why you're doing it.
If you're a responsible person you should take precautions to ensure your short colt magnums NEVER end up in anyone else's hands. (including after you pass away...) So, I don't think its a very good idea.
That being said, lets look at the technical aspects, and for now, ASSUME working up to .357 pressure is allowable.
You've got dies (Lee) so you can crimp the short case. Which is important, because if you get close to .357 level, you're going to get .357 recoil.
Next question is how much volume do you have to work with?
the 38 Short Colt actually has slightly greater case capacity than the 9mm.
Ok, if this is correct, then fast pistol powders will do better, medium ones will work and the slow "magnum" powders are a poor choice.
There's a reason people don't load 2400, H110 or W296 in 9mm Luger size cases. And, for what its worth, the K frame .357 is not a super strong gun.
So, watch your brass carefully. I don't know when you will start seeing flattened primes (if you ever do) but I'll tell you the one pressure sign you must not ignore. When fired cases stick in the chamber, and cannot be ejected NORMALLY by hand, brother you are DONE. Back off that load at least a couple tenths grain. or more!
IF you want to give your loads here, be sure to include the "sticky" warning (copy and paste it into your post) about loads exceeding published data.
Doing what you say you want to do puts you completely "off the map" and entirely on your own.
44AMP, I really do appreciate your concern! And I mean that in all honesty! You questions all have merit and should be asked.
What got me interested in the 38 Short was when I realized the case capacity was actually slightly larger than that of a 9mm. Plus the use of 9mm’s in 357 revolvers got me thinking.
Could I use 9mm reloading data with 38 Short brass? Then I saw FortuneCookie45 loading 38 Short using 4.5 grains of Win 231 to push 158 grain bullets at 1050 FPS.
Usually FortuneCookie45 is very conservative and he did state he saw now signs of inordinate pressures.
So really my target isn’t making 38 Shorts into 357s but something far less grandiose, something much more modest: the 9mm.
What I’m thinking about is starting with 3.3 grains of Titegroup and using 158 grain Berry’s bullets? And oh yeah, using Starline brass of course (there’s a good reason why Buffalo Bore uses Starline).
What got me interested in the 38 Short was when I realized the case capacity was actually slightly larger than that of a 9mm. Plus the use of 9mm’s in 357 revolvers got me thinking.
Could I use 9mm reloading data with 38 Short brass? Then I saw FortuneCookie45 loading 38 Short using 4.5 grains of Win 231 to push 158 grain bullets at 1050 FPS.
Usually FortuneCookie45 is very conservative and he did state he saw now signs of inordinate pressures.
So really my target isn’t making 38 Shorts into 357s but something far less grandiose, something much more modest: the 9mm.
What I’m thinking about is starting with 3.3 grains of Titegroup and using 158 grain Berry’s bullets? And oh yeah, using Starline brass of course (there’s a good reason why Buffalo Bore uses Starline).
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Jim Watson
New member
Is it because the short case loads and unloads a fraction of a second faster (in a DA revolver)???
That is what Don P is doing. Common practice in ICORE and USPSA. They don't need high velocity so the Short is only moderately overloaded.
Truthtellers said:That doesn't matter when it's being shot in a .357 Magnum chambered firearm.
I considered that when I made my reply. What I realized is, never having had any 38 Short Colt brass, I didn't know how the head thickness compared to the 38 Special, so I was hesitant to suggest it could necessarily make 357 pressures without checking that the head is up to 357 construction practices. Starline makes good brass with hard heads, but it would be worth a call to them to ask if the head design is a match to the pressures being contemplated.
I have been finishing reading Hatchers 1927 book, Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers. In it, he mentions that after the military abandoned the 38 Short Colt as its standard sidearm, there was a good deal of the ammunition left over. He was allowed to issue it for practice as the National Matches, and apparently that was a popular use for the round until it faded away.
Jim Watson
New member
military abandoned the 38 Short Colt
Nope.
TruthTellers
New member
I never said I would or that others should load .38 Short Colt to .357 level pressures, I just said that as long as they're being shot in .357 guns, it should be okay.Much as I hate to defend SAAMI about their pressure limits, you've got it exactly backwards.
SAAMI isn't keeping the pressure artificially low in this case, you are wanting to jack it up artificially HIGH.
You want to load the .38 short case to .357 magnum pressures, for use in a .357 Magnum gun, ok, its your gun, your ammo, and your business. Though I do wonder why on Earth you would do it. Is it because the short case loads and unloads a fraction of a second faster (in a DA revolver)???
I don't see what possible use that would be, and since we aren't at the end times just yet, and real .357 & .38 Special brass is available, I don't know why you're doing it.
If you're a responsible person you should take precautions to ensure your short colt magnums NEVER end up in anyone else's hands. (including after you pass away...) So, I don't think its a very good idea.
That being said, lets look at the technical aspects, and for now, ASSUME working up to .357 pressure is allowable.
You've got dies (Lee) so you can crimp the short case. Which is important, because if you get close to .357 level, you're going to get .357 recoil.
Next question is how much volume do you have to work with?
Personally, I wouldn't load the .38 Short Colt's above .38 +P max pressures.
your additional comments have given me a better idea of what you intend to do.
Thanks for explaining further.
You want approx. 9mm level loads in brass that fits in your gun.
Ok, in general terms a pressure vessel is a pressure vessel
Your brass has slightly more capacity than 9mm Luger..ok, fine, you can work with that. A quick look at an old book shows several powders pushing 9mm 147gr (the closest the data gets to 158gr) showing max loads with somewhere between 4 and 6gr of powder.
you have plenty of room for that.
The loads I looked at topped out in the 950-1050fps range, but that's from a semi with a 4" you'll probably get a different result from a revolver, what's your .357's barrel length?
Another thing to watch for is accuracy / bullet jump. May not make a noticeable difference, or you might be shooting patterns instead of groups.
No way to know until you begin testing. you might find some bullets make a big deal of how much they have to jump, and others behave differently.
Cross that bridge when you come to it.
If I were doing it, I'd start with bottom end 9mm load, load a few, and see how they behaved. Chrono them for speed, and consistency. Once you know what you've got, work up carefully like any other load.
Thanks for explaining further.
You want approx. 9mm level loads in brass that fits in your gun.
Ok, in general terms a pressure vessel is a pressure vessel
Your brass has slightly more capacity than 9mm Luger..ok, fine, you can work with that. A quick look at an old book shows several powders pushing 9mm 147gr (the closest the data gets to 158gr) showing max loads with somewhere between 4 and 6gr of powder.
you have plenty of room for that.
The loads I looked at topped out in the 950-1050fps range, but that's from a semi with a 4" you'll probably get a different result from a revolver, what's your .357's barrel length?
Another thing to watch for is accuracy / bullet jump. May not make a noticeable difference, or you might be shooting patterns instead of groups.
No way to know until you begin testing. you might find some bullets make a big deal of how much they have to jump, and others behave differently.
Cross that bridge when you come to it.
If I were doing it, I'd start with bottom end 9mm load, load a few, and see how they behaved. Chrono them for speed, and consistency. Once you know what you've got, work up carefully like any other load.