38 Short Colt is available!

[Sir William]

I have a older Colt chambered in 32 Short Colt and have found ammunition for it. I have another older Colt that is chambered in 38 Short Colt. I have been looking for the proper ammunition for it. I found some. Remington Express. 125 gr, lead, round nose and it works well. I believe you need to ask for R38SC when ordering. It is brass, reloadable and somewhat expensive. A little over $22.00 per 50.

 

[omegapd]

Hey Sir W,

Isn't one of those rounds the same thing as a S&W round but Colt didn't want the competition's name on the gun?

EW

 

[Sir William]

Yes and no. Colt actually differs slightly from the S&W dimensions. I have always understood 38 Short Colt is a stand alone cartridge. Colt did chamber their revolvers in 38 S&W short and refer to that as 38 New Police. The really odd thing is a Colt Police Positive Special I have. It has stampings for 38 Short Colt, 38 New Police and 38 S&W on its barrel.

 

[mtnboomer]

Yes, the .38 'Short' Colt is different as it is a .357" bullet and is the forerunner of the .38 'Long' Colt and, indirectly, the .38 S&W Special.

The .38 S&W and the .38 Colt New Police uses a .366" bullet.

Sir William, if you reload, I believe Starline Brass makes cases for the .38 Long Colt. Cutting these down to proper length will give you Short Colt cases.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Isn't one of those rounds the same thing as a S&W round but Colt didn't want the competition's name on the gun?"

No. The .38 Short Colt and .38 S&W are not interchangable.

I believe the .38 Short Colt is the older cartridge, but never caught on like the .38 S&W did.

In the end, Colt was forced to bow to popular demand and chamber the .38 S&W, but they didn't want the S&W name on their guns, so they changed the bullet configuration, altered it to a flat point, and named it the .38 New Police.

Some years later they put a 200-gr. bullet in it and called it the .38 Colt Super Police.

Colt also did the same thing with the .38 S&W Special, marking their guns .38 Colt Special.


In reality, there's no such thing as the .38 S&W Short or .32 S&W Short. S&W never called them that, although a lot of people have over the years.

 

[omegapd]

No. The .38 Short Colt and .38 S&W are not interchangable.

Mike,

Yeah, I knew that one. Will talks about the 32 Short Colt in the original post. Thats the one I was thinking of...

Isn't that one the same as 32 S&W? Or maybe there's a 32 Long Colt the same as 32 S&W Long? Seems like the .32s were tied together somehow...

 

[Sir William]

There are dimensional differences between 32 Short Colt and 32 S&W (short) too. The principle concern is that you can safely load 38 Short Colt in a 38 Long Colt revolver historically. The problem came up that 38 Special would also chamber and that is unsafe. I can chamber 357 Magnum in my SAW era Colt DA 38 6". That is UNSAFE! S&W wanted their ammunition to be associated with their trademark. So did Colt. Colt developed the tighter chambers originally in 38 Short Colt so that S&W ammunition would NOT chamber in Colt revolvers. Marketing.

 

[Quantrill]

"The .38 S&W and the .38 Colt New Police uses a .366" bullet."

I believe that dimension should be .361 according to Lyman and others. Quantrill

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Colt developed the tighter chambers originally in 38 Short Colt so that S&W ammunition would NOT chamber in Colt revolvers."

The only problem with that is that the .38 Short Colt predates the .38 S&W by several years.

S&W introduced the .38 S&W in 1877, in response to the .38 Short Colt, which apparently first hit the streets in the early 1870s, shortly after the rimfire .38 Short (1871).

The original verson of the .38 Short Colt also used a heeled bullet of .375 diameter, the same as the .38 Short rimfire.


Omega,

As will notes, the .32 S&W and the .32 S&W Long were different from the .32 Short and Long Colt cartridges.

However, Colt ran into the same problem with the .32s that they did with the .38s... S&W's cartridges were FAR more popular.

So, Colt changed the bullet configuration of the .32 S&W Long and named it the .32 Colt New Police.

 

[Sir William]

I picked up my information from a Shotgun News article. A knowledgable authority beats the paid writer again. Thanks for clearing up the waters. The antique carridges are somewhat confusing. Throw in Merwin-Hulbert and I confess ignorance.

 

[omegapd]

Thanks Mike, you cleared that up well.

I remember years ago buying a box of Winchester 32 S&W Long and it also saying something about Colt on the box as well...

 

[BlueTrain]

Not to introduce something off topic here but the gist of the thread is older ammunition.

You all know about the .38 S&W Special Hi-Speed, also called the .38-44, I believe. Supposedly just a higher pressure .38 Special, possibly higher than plus P, it is surprising that pre-war Colt Police Positive Special revolvers were rated (by that, I mean advertised for) for this round, even though the S&W K frames were not. The S&W K frames were slightly larger than the Colt (don't know what the frame size designation was for Colt). I wonder how the concept worked out in practice, meaning how many revolvers were damaged or prematurely aged, so to speak, by the use of the high speed ammunition.

Even more off top, I note that the S&W web site makes mention of other frame sizes besides J, K, L, and N (formerly also called S). I didn't look it up just before making this post but I think it may have been on the pages with grips.

Anyone remember the K-32?

OK, did some research on the S&W site. They mention on the page with holsters E, F, H and G frame sizes. I did not research anywhere else but I've never seen reference to those before. Perhaps they are variations of the J, K, L and N sizes. I have heard of an I frame.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"formerly also called S"

Well, some people have called N frames the S frame, but that's always been a complete misnomer.

The S refers to the letter prefix on the serial number, and it was first applied not to post war N-frame guns, but very late war and post war K frame revolvers.

"OK, did some research on the S&W site. They mention on the page with holsters E, F, H and G frame sizes."

Yep, confusing to a lot of people, as those designations are not in the common lexicon, except among historians and collectors. They refer not to frame size, but frame size AND composition -- they're the letter designations for the stainless steel guns.

J, K, L, and N are all steel frames.

E, F, H, and G are the corresponding frames in stainless.


Unless you're a serious collector, most people simply don't make the designation. To them (and even me) the Model 19 and Model 64 are both K-frame revovlers.

The I frame (and later I frame improved) preceded the J frame. The I frame was introduced in 1896 or there abouts as the original Hand Ejector model along with the .32 S&W Long.

After WW II, when there were calls for the .38 Spl. in a gun smaller than the K frame, Smith developed the J frame and over the span of about a decade phased out the I frame.

There was also the M frame, the original Ladysmith, introduced around 1902.

Very small, VERY collectible.

 

[Sir William]

Yes. I have a transitional I frame in 38 Special. I have a friend who has one also.

 

[BlueTrain]

I found anothe website (Handloads.Com) that had a comprehensive list of frame sizes with relevant models which was helpful. The list almost goes on and on. Some of the frame sizes are suffixed with "T," for target, I presume.

I was aware that the "S" was not the factory designation for the large frame size but only the prefix on earlier serial numbers. I had an early .44 magnum with just such a number.

I also note with interest the large number of models I have not been familiar with but it seems like I ought to be, just as a matter of basic knowledge, plus all the names that were formerly used before the numbers came along. There was a model 11, for instance, that I couldn't describe. Then there interesting names like regulation police and terrier and outdoorsman. In spite of having owned a registered .357 magnum, I have barely scratched the surface of Smith & Wessonology. The .357 magnum has now passed on to other hands so that others can have the privilage of being able to say, "having owned."

This forum needs a collector's section.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Yes. I have a transitional I frame in 38 Special. I have a friend who has one also."

Uhm.... No, no you don't.

The Improved I frame still wasn't large enough to chamber the .38 Special. Measure your cylinder. If it's 1.25" long, the gun has 4 screws, and a no strain screw, you have an improved I frame.

If your cylinder is 1.4" long, you have a J frame.

See Supica and Nahaus, second edition, page 108.

 

[Archie]

Mr. Irwin, if I remember correctly, the model 36 Chief's Special was preceeded by the "Terrier". The Terrier was a five shot snubby in (here we are, almost full circle) .38 Smith & Wesson. I believe that must have been the "I" frame revolver with the shorter cylinder. I've seen a couple of them, never fired one.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Archie,

Yes, the I-frame Terrier was chambered in .38 S&W and can be seen as the direct predecessor of the J-frame Chief's Special.


Just to round out the kicker...

Just as no I frame/Improved I frame was ever chambered in .38 Special due to the limitations of the cylinder and frame, no J-frame revolver was ever chambered in .38 S&W.

It was a clean break between the two.

 

[Sir William]

Not exactly. My friend and I both own transitional 38 S&W Special I frame snubbies. The Model 11 was the S&W M&P or Model 10 chambered for 380-200/38 S&W for export. K frame.

 

[Mike Irwin]

William,

I'll say this again. There is no such thing as an Improved I frame transitional chambered in .38 Special manufactured by Smith & Wesson.

NO I frame of any type, original or improved, was ever chambered in .38 Special.

It is dimensionally impossible.

The J frame was the first sub-K-frame revolver chambered for .38 Spl.

From Supica and Nahaus (The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson), page 110:

The J frame was developed as an attempt to package the power of the .38 Special cartridge in a small, pocket-sized revolver. The I frame was too small, although it would accommodate six-shot .32 (Long) or five-shot .38 S&W configurations (the Terrier).

ibid, page 108:

I Frame .38
The .38 Regulation Police and the .38/32 Terrier are five-shot revolvers chambered for the .38 S&W round, which is shorter, older, and less pwoerful than the .38 Special round... The I frame was too small for the .38 Special rond, and was eventually discontinued and replaced by the J frame, which would accomodate both five-shot .38 Special and six-shot .32 (long) configurations. Also note that the averate .38 Special cartridge will not fit within the frame opening of an I frame or "Improved I' frame, which has a frame opening of 1.52" by 1.33". All examined I frames and Improved I frames have a nominal cylinder length of 1.25", thereby requireing the new "J" frame with a larger frame opening to fire the .38 Special cartridge. This new frame is 1.645" by 1.34" with a longer cylinder having a nominal length of 1.4", thereby accommodating the .38 Special.

Also, Smith & Wesson's official historian, Roy Jinks, makes absolutely no mention of I frame .38 Specials in any of his writing.

The Model 11 has nothing to do with this discussion, it's the K-frame follow on to the .380-200 revolves, which were made for the British and Commonwealth governments during WW II.

If you like, I'll even e-mail Rick Nahaus, one of the authors of the Standard Catalog, inveterate collector of S&W revolvers, and close collaborator with Roy Jinks on the materials that went into the two published editions of the Standard Catalog.

I've seen supposed I-frame .38 Specials offered at gun shows before. Not a single one has passed the sniff test. They are all very early J frames. The dimensions don't lie.

I have to know, though, what makes you think that you have a factory Improved I frame chambered in .38 Special?

Have you ever had it authenticated by Roy Jinks at S&W?