.38+p .vs .357? Which and why?
- Thread starter CAP1
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Accuracy difference is minimal. I get about the same results with .357 magnum and .38 spl +p.
Recoil difference is significant. In light weight guns (i.e. Ruger SP 101, S&W snubbies), a .357 magnum will hurt your hand, a .38 spl +p is relatively mild. Also, in snubbies the .357 magnum is not very efficient (i.e. the velocity does not improve much even though recoil is nasty).
In medium framed guns that weight more, (i.e. S&W 686, Ruger GP 100), recoil difference is moderate. .357 magnum is not that bad in these guns (very controllable). .38 Spl +p is a piece of cake out of medium framed revolvers. Once you get a 4" plus barrel, the efficiency of .357 magnum over .38 spl +p is significant--the velocity increase of the magnums is worth the extra recoil.
In larger framed revolvers (i.e. .357 Ruger Redhawk) that approach 48 ounces (3 lbs) in weight, recoil of even hot .357 magnums is mild.
So, my philosophy is don't bother with .357 magnums in 2" to 2.5" barrels. Too much recoil for the SLIGHT amount of performance. In 3" barrels, its a flip of the coin--some of the hot 110 grain and 125 grain (lighter bullets) perform ok out of 3" barrels IMO. For me, I no longer use .357 magnums except in 4" or greater barrels. They give enough extra velocity to make up for the extra recoil and increased time between shots.
Recoil difference is significant. In light weight guns (i.e. Ruger SP 101, S&W snubbies), a .357 magnum will hurt your hand, a .38 spl +p is relatively mild. Also, in snubbies the .357 magnum is not very efficient (i.e. the velocity does not improve much even though recoil is nasty).
In medium framed guns that weight more, (i.e. S&W 686, Ruger GP 100), recoil difference is moderate. .357 magnum is not that bad in these guns (very controllable). .38 Spl +p is a piece of cake out of medium framed revolvers. Once you get a 4" plus barrel, the efficiency of .357 magnum over .38 spl +p is significant--the velocity increase of the magnums is worth the extra recoil.
In larger framed revolvers (i.e. .357 Ruger Redhawk) that approach 48 ounces (3 lbs) in weight, recoil of even hot .357 magnums is mild.
So, my philosophy is don't bother with .357 magnums in 2" to 2.5" barrels. Too much recoil for the SLIGHT amount of performance. In 3" barrels, its a flip of the coin--some of the hot 110 grain and 125 grain (lighter bullets) perform ok out of 3" barrels IMO. For me, I no longer use .357 magnums except in 4" or greater barrels. They give enough extra velocity to make up for the extra recoil and increased time between shots.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Of course, the recoil point depends heavily on bullet weights, relative loadings, etc.
Federal's 158-gr. +P .38s seem to recoil a LOT more harshly than Remington's 125-gr. .357 Mag. out of my Model 19 2.5"
Federal's 158-gr. +P .38s seem to recoil a LOT more harshly than Remington's 125-gr. .357 Mag. out of my Model 19 2.5"
Mark IV Series 80
New member
One other thing about the .357 Magnum - The muzzle blast can be deafening, especially if you need to fire inside of a house or car.
Some .357 rounds have a huge muzzle flash, producing night-blindness.
I load the Model 66 and the 638 with the .38 Special +P, 158 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollowpoints. Winchester and Federal produce this round.
Some .357 rounds have a huge muzzle flash, producing night-blindness.
I load the Model 66 and the 638 with the .38 Special +P, 158 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollowpoints. Winchester and Federal produce this round.
Eric Larsen
New member
CZ,
"Recoil difference is significant. In light weight guns (i.e. Ruger SP 101, S&W snubbies), a .357 magnum will hurt your hand, a .38 spl +p is relatively mild. Also, in snubbies the .357 magnum is not very efficient (i.e. the velocity does not improve much even though recoil is nasty). "
When fired from a snubbie, the 357 Mag has over 400 FPE with 125gr Defensive JHP's as the 38+P has around 200 FPE......
What is not efficient about these figures? Please, Im not flaming you really! Im just curious. We chrono'd 5 different guns a couple of years ago and the numbers were consistant. Fired from a small gun, the Mag round is hard to beat...a 3" barrel 45 ACP..like a Kimber Ultra Carry with +P loads has around 360 FPE.
The 155 GoldDot from a K40...3 1/2" barrel has approx 430 FPE.
I agree that the 38+P recoils much less and is slightly quicker for followup shots...but the difference in energy produced is DOUBLE and thats a hell of alot, especially when your comparing it to energy levels equal to a .380.
Shoot well
"Recoil difference is significant. In light weight guns (i.e. Ruger SP 101, S&W snubbies), a .357 magnum will hurt your hand, a .38 spl +p is relatively mild. Also, in snubbies the .357 magnum is not very efficient (i.e. the velocity does not improve much even though recoil is nasty). "
When fired from a snubbie, the 357 Mag has over 400 FPE with 125gr Defensive JHP's as the 38+P has around 200 FPE......
What is not efficient about these figures? Please, Im not flaming you really! Im just curious. We chrono'd 5 different guns a couple of years ago and the numbers were consistant. Fired from a small gun, the Mag round is hard to beat...a 3" barrel 45 ACP..like a Kimber Ultra Carry with +P loads has around 360 FPE.
The 155 GoldDot from a K40...3 1/2" barrel has approx 430 FPE.
I agree that the 38+P recoils much less and is slightly quicker for followup shots...but the difference in energy produced is DOUBLE and thats a hell of alot, especially when your comparing it to energy levels equal to a .380.
Shoot well
^I didn't take into account energy, which squares velocity. In other words, a little change in velocity results in a larger change in energy. Regardless, at the velocities that snubbies get, I do not think the hollowpoints will work as well as say a 4" barrel. At least they didn't when I performed such tests. Even if you double energy, if the bullet doesn't open up and goes through the target, all you have is wasted energy and a clean hole. I'm not saying that this is the case everytime, but when I evaluated .357 magnums out of my 2.25" barrel I do recall far less expansion than normal using 125 grain hollowpoints. This was a few years back, and I suppose the ammunition makers could have fixed this somewhat. Even so, given equal bullet weights and loads, the 4" barrel (and greater length barrels) should give you better expansion IMO. Personally, if I had to chose, I'd prefer expansion--assuming sufficient penetration-- over raw energy (though, both is best). YMMV
Eric Larsen
New member
CZ...all good points. IMO, given the increase in velocity the 357 should expand better with the same bullet design in the 38+P.
I really cant say about the newest baddest 357 vs 38+P rnds for expansion from first hand experience...maybe it warrants another test ?
Anyway, theoretically the 357, with its faster bullet, should do a better job of expanding if using a good bullet design.
Just to let all of you know...I have nothing against the 38+P round. Ive shot ALOT of it through my shorty wheels. It does in fact offer quicker followup shots and is very accurate...but I dont mind the recoil of full house loads and feel its a good trade off with the Mag loads....
Hey to each there own.....
Shoot well
I really cant say about the newest baddest 357 vs 38+P rnds for expansion from first hand experience...maybe it warrants another test ?
Anyway, theoretically the 357, with its faster bullet, should do a better job of expanding if using a good bullet design.Just to let all of you know...I have nothing against the 38+P round. Ive shot ALOT of it through my shorty wheels. It does in fact offer quicker followup shots and is very accurate...but I dont mind the recoil of full house loads and feel its a good trade off with the Mag loads....
Hey to each there own.....
Shoot well
My .02 is stick with the .38 and a 4" tube unless hunting or backpacing, then go with the .357. No matter what barrel length and load you go with, the .357 is LOUD and IMHO not as controllable as the +p round. I have shot 110, 125, 135(? Fed. Personal Refense round), and 158 gr. .357s out of 2.5" and 4" tubes and fear for permanent hearing damage without muffs, i.e. in a real life shooting scenario. I have shot the 158-gr. +p put of my 2" S&W Airweight, 2.5" Model 19, and 4" Model 686 and like it a lot. But as they say, YMMV.
I like the .357 in snubbies BECAUSE of the flash.
I have fired at 7 yards and watched the target blow backwards and even tear a little. That ball of fire is also going to envelop an adversary and add to his discomfort and disorientation. Both are an advantage to me.
A bullet in the chest and a face full of flame. Time to rethink the argument.
I have fired at 7 yards and watched the target blow backwards and even tear a little. That ball of fire is also going to envelop an adversary and add to his discomfort and disorientation. Both are an advantage to me.
A bullet in the chest and a face full of flame. Time to rethink the argument.
Thats a good point on hearing. If you fire a .357 magnum indoors without protection, at best your ears will ring for a long while. At worst, you could suffer severe hearing damage or permanent deafness. Its not practical to put on hearing protection when confronted by an armed intruder (that would be the least of your worries). The intruder won't be courteous enough to allow you to grab your hearing protection gear before shooting. So, perhaps .38 spl or .38 spl +p is best indoors, and .357 magnum is best used as an outdoor round for trail protection. YMMV
Radicalcleric
New member
The Magnum will always out perform the .38 Special no matter what barrel length. The decision on what caliber to use is really dictated by the gun you want. The smallest and lightest will be the .38 and even if the Magnum is close in size the recoil may be objectionable. I find that hot .38s from my M40 is enough for me. I would not want to shoot a Magnum J frame.
I usually carry a .380. If a 9MM were made that was the same size and weight, I would carry that instead. I always want as much power as I can handle, but my choice as to what to carry is based on the gun.
I usually carry a .380. If a 9MM were made that was the same size and weight, I would carry that instead. I always want as much power as I can handle, but my choice as to what to carry is based on the gun.
SaxonPig makes a good point. Think about the, uh, delivery vehicle you have in mind. Since I own for CCW only, I generally buy just two types of handguns: pocket carry and belt carry under a covering garment. My tastes run to .38 snubbies for the pocket and full-sized 1911s or 4" .357s for the belt. A snubbie .357 on the belt makes no sense-- you may as well get a full-sized gun, with better recoil handling abilities and shot-to-shot accuracy.
Here's another thought -- if you want to go to 110-gr. .357s to save yoiurself blast and recoil, why no just load a pocket 9mm or a hi-cap 9mm with Cor Bons? Similar bullet weight and velocities without the enormous pressures and blast of the .357 round. easier to carry and reload, too.
Here's another thought -- if you want to go to 110-gr. .357s to save yoiurself blast and recoil, why no just load a pocket 9mm or a hi-cap 9mm with Cor Bons? Similar bullet weight and velocities without the enormous pressures and blast of the .357 round. easier to carry and reload, too.
Guys are into power. Especially the ones trying to "compensate" in my opinion. So they get the 340 just to say that they carry a .357 even if it's stocked with .38s Or worse-they practice with .38s but carry .357, counting on adrenaline to pull them through in a crisis!
Not wise in my opinion so my rules for me: Don't carry what I don't practice a LOT with! Adrenaline can and will screw most people up under pressure unless you have rehearsed the steps/feel of the "action" so that they have become an automatic reaction. If you are not practing a lot with .357 (and virtually no one I know with the 340 is-it is just too uncomfortable for many rounds), then don't carry it.
The ability to get rounds down range quickly and accurately is more important in a high stress/lethal scenario than caliber. Even the BEST shooters will do that better with a .38 in a lightweight gun particularly. And besides, are you seriously telling me that a .38+P Federal Hydroshock won't do the job?! Please.
That being said, when I am bowhunting and weight is not an issue and I can even carry a gun, then a larger caliber gun is what I go with.
So they get the 340 just to say that they carry a .357 even if it's stocked with .38s Or worse-they practice with .38s but carry .357, counting on adrenaline to pull them through in a crisis! Not wise in my opinion so my rules for me: Don't carry what I don't practice a LOT with! Adrenaline can and will screw most people up under pressure unless you have rehearsed the steps/feel of the "action" so that they have become an automatic reaction. If you are not practing a lot with .357 (and virtually no one I know with the 340 is-it is just too uncomfortable for many rounds), then don't carry it.
The ability to get rounds down range quickly and accurately is more important in a high stress/lethal scenario than caliber. Even the BEST shooters will do that better with a .38 in a lightweight gun particularly. And besides, are you seriously telling me that a .38+P Federal Hydroshock won't do the job?! Please.
That being said, when I am bowhunting and weight is not an issue and I can even carry a gun, then a larger caliber gun is what I go with.