38 cal. Can I use the same bullet?

[Jeff H]

for reloading both 38spec and .357, I want to use LSWC bullets for punching paper (either 125 or 158 grain I haven't decided yet). Can I use the same bullets for both (read as: purchased from someone who casts bullets for a living) or will it create a bunch of leading in one or the other?

I plan on working up a average 38spec load, and a hot .357 load. Both of these will be shot out of the same guns. Either my Blackhawk or a GP100 as soon as I find one at a good price.

 

[oneounceload]

Yes the bullets can be used in both; however, I would NOT shoot a "hot" 357 load with a lead bullet without a gas check, otherwise you'll get some really nice leading issues in the barrel.

 

[zxcvbob]

Go with the 158's and you should be fine, assuming the bullets are not too small in diameter. Gas checks not necessary, but you may get a little leading (gas checks are expensive; leading is easy to remove if it's not excessive.)

Or you might get lucky and have no leading at all (my .30 Ruger Blackhawk doesn't lead with plain lead bullets at 1700+ fps and I don't know why)

 

[BigJimP]

I shoot the same jacketed bullet in .38 spl and .357 mag ( 158 gr CMJ ) - but I'd be cautious on cast lead bullets - like others advised .../ but I don't have much experience with cast bullets .... I don't mess with them.

 

[snuffy]

Can I use the same bullets for both (read as: purchased from someone who casts bullets for a living) or will it create a bunch of leading in one or the other?

To your main question, yes. BUT buying cast lead bullets leaves you with no control of what they'd be lubed with or the size. Shooting lead bullets is more of a precise process than simply buying jacketed bullets. One size fits all is truly the case. Not so for lead. You should slug the cylinder throats and the barrel. Then use a cast bullet sized to fit the reading from that slug.

On the other hand, you might get lucky, the bullets may fit a shoot accurately, AND not lead.

As for needing a gas check, again if they fit right AND the lube is doing it's job, .357 magnum velocities can be reached without leading with plain based bullets. Some other factors have to be there, the bullet can't be dead soft and the load has to be right.

 

[Jeff H]

so if lead bullets are not the best for 357, can someone recommend an inexpensive bullet for punching paper?


OR...how do I get a gas check on the back of a lead bullet for a reasonable cost?

 

[rn22723]

Here is something to consider..........................
If you want 38 Special performance......just load low end 357 data. If you shoot lead 38's in 357 chambers you would need to clean chambers before going to 357's as they probably will not chamber........

 

[zxcvbob]

Lead bullets are great for .357 Magnum. Just get you some 158 grain SWC's or RNFP's, or 148 grain DEWC's and go to town.

• You can expect some leading (you might get lucky and not a have a problem with it.)
• Leading is easier to clean than copper fouling.
• Use Alliant 2400 powder, or faster. (I like Herco and AA#7.) This also helps keep the expense down.

The problem with a ring of crud building up when shooting .38 Specials in a .357 (and preventing .357's from chambering) is real -- but blown totally out of proportion. It takes a while. Just clean your gun and the problem goes away.

 

[Wuchak]

You'll get leading in one or the other and probably not great accuracy with one or the other, unless you load them to the same velocity range. Which, if they are just plinking loads isn't an issue because you can load down the .357. This also spares your hand a beating on range day. Am I correct in assuming you have a .357 and a .38? If not why bother with the 38 at all when you can just do .357 light loads?

Below is a great explanation of why bullet harness matters courtesy of the Missouri Bullet Company. I have no financial interest in the company but I can tell you that I've used their bullets and they are great. Their prices, especially shipping, are fantastic. They are a small husband and wife run shop and their customer service is outstanding. They also carry the one tool everyone that is going to shoot lead bullets should own and that the Louis Lead Remover. It's been around forever and works great but seems to have been forgotten by a lot of shooters. http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php They charge $28 per 500 158gr semi-wadcutter bullets in either hardness level and $27 for 500 148gr double ended wadcutters which only come in the alloy for 38 velocities. I like loading the 148's because you don't have to worry about which end is up. Just grab and load. The 148gr DEWC also are ridiculously accurate for what is essentially a flying 55 gallon drum. MBC charges a flat $10.85 for shipping up to 2000 rounds of bullets that are under 240gr. That comes to $122.85 for 2000 158gr SWC on your doorstep.


The MBC Difference
Hardness-Optimized Bullets

Most cast bullet shooters don't know a lot about the properties of the lead alloy they're shooting because they haven't been educated about it. If you want to learn a little bit about some important cast bullet facts, then please read on.

A common conception is that when it comes to lead bullets, harder lead equals less leading. This is a false perception! To explain this surprising statement, it is necessary to discuss the physics of getting the bullet out of the barrel and how lead residue comes to be deposted in the bore. When the powder charge ignites, pressure is generated. This pressure is measured in “copper units of pressure” (CUPS) and expressed in thousand of pounds per square inch. The heavier the powder charge, the greater the CUPS. Naturally, the purpose of generating pressure in the cartridge case is to force the bullet out of the case mouth and on down the barrel.

Lead is a soft metal. Its hardness is expressed on a standard scale, called the Brinell Hardness Number (BHN.) The BHN of the bullet interacts with the pressure generated by the burning powder. The mechanism of this involves the effect of the generation of thousands of pounds per square inch of pressure which causes the base of the bullet to expand, or “obturate”. Properly obturated, the base will have expanded beyond its original diameter which has the effect of “sealing the bore” against the explosive pressure of the gases burning behind it. Properly sealed, and working in conjunction with the lubricant in the lube groove, the bullet will thus not allow gases to escape forward from around the base of the bullets, which prevents it from shaving lead from the bullet body and forcing it into the bore grooves (otherwise known as “leading”.)

This failure to obturate (“seal the bore against onrushing gases”) causes leading which is a chore to clean and is a major obstacle to accuracy.

An optimally hard lead bullet is simply one which obturates at a given pressure sufficiently to seal the bore against the gases which would otherwise “cut through” the soft lead (called “gas-cutting”, forcing molten lead into your rifling. A bullet which is too hard won't obturate and seal the bore, because the gas pressure is insufficient to expand the base of the bullet. A bullet which is too soft at a given pressure will experience excessive base expansion and vaporization of the lead, causing leading.

There is a formula for optimal bullet hardness which is simple and it is worth knowing:

Optimum BHN = CUPS / (1422 x .90)

The CUPS of your reloads is published in the reloading manuals. Take a typical .45 ACP load, using a 200-grain LSWC bullet – 5.0 grains of Bullseye. This load develops 900 FPS and is in common use among IPSC and IDPA gunners. The reloading manual shows that the pressure generated by this load is 20,000 CUPS. So, the formula for optimal bullet hardness is

20,000 / 1279.8 = 15.62

There it is! For this application – shooting a 200-grain LSWC at 900 FPS requires that you use a bullet with a BHN of 16 to 18 (round upwards a couple of BHN points for flexibility.)

You may be asking why shooters don't know much about this whole bullet hardness optimization business. The reason is basically that the large manufacturers, for ease of production, use a standard alloy for all of their cast bullet construction, an alloy which has a Brinell Hardness Number of approximately 24. Why do they do this? It's simple – one standard alloy simplifies logistics for the big manufacturers and, equally importantly, a bullet this hard ships well by standing up to getting dinged around during transportation. The fact that their bullets are too hard and cause leading and aren't very accurate because of improper obturation is something they'd really rather you weren't aware of. This explains why neither their packaging nor product information will ever refer to the BHN of their products.

Along those lines, how many boxes of cast bullets – from any source – state the BHN on them?

At the Missouri Bullet Company, we optimize bullets for your intended application. We don't take a “one size fits all” approach to manufacturing your bullets. Every box of our bullets displays the BHN, which we constantly sample and monitor. We take the time to create lead bullet alloy that is specialized for the bullet hardness that works best for you. It is a fact that we spend significantly more time alloying our lead than we do in making the bullets that come from it and we do this to provide you the right bullet for your application.

Try the MBC Difference. You'll be glad you did.

 

[LHB1]

Gas checks can ONLY be added to cast bullets designed for them. Such bullets have rebated (smaller diameter) heels to allow for the thickness of gas check when attached to be the same diameter as rest of the bullet. Having said that, I have loaded cast lead bullets since 1964 in either .357 or .44 mag without gas checks at velocities up to 1425 fps across chronograph without excessive leading. Be advised that cast lead bullets can sometimes be finicky and difficult. At other times or for other guns/people, they may work fine from the first. I have been very lucky with them and have shot cast lead bullets exclusively in my pistols for 45 years.

 

[WESHOOT2]

hmmm.....

I use and enjoy shooting numerous brands and weights of hard-cast lead bullets in every chambering I load for, to include three 357-chambered and one 38-chambered revolvers.
I use hardcast bullets ranging in diameter from .357" up to .359" (my most commonly used diameter).
I also occasionally load swaged lead that mikes at .3545".
I load from under 750fps to (well) over 1400fps (one 357 is a 7.5" Redhawk ).
I have no leading issues whatsoever, but I 'treat' my bores first (I clean them squeaky-clean, then saturate a clean patch with Tetragun oil and swab the bore until dripping. I allow it to dry THOROUGHLY, then follow with a clean dry patch. Then I go shooting).

 

[Jeff H]

hahaha, so the general consensus is that it works for some and not others.

I think I'll get some lead bullets mostly for 38 spec but may load a few in 357 to check it out. If I don't get leading, great, but if I do, then I know my choices on what to do after that.

Am I correct in assuming you have a .357 and a .38?

Yes I have one of each, but I think I need another 357 to keep my blackhawk company.

I have heard reference to "slugging" the barrel to check the diameter. How do I do that? just insert the calipers in the barrel on the rifling or do I actually make a slug out of some material and shove it down the barrel?

 

[LHB1]

Quote: "...actually make a slug out of some material and shove it down the barrel? "

Yep, although I have never done it with any of my guns. I do however clean the barrel thoroughly after each range session AND especially clean the barrel thoroughly before switching from hard cast bullets to jacketed bullets OR vice versa. Some will say this is unnecessary but I think it is a safe precaution and helps to minimize leading. I very rarely fire jacketed bullets anyway and some of my pistols have never fired a jacketed round. FWIW, I have fired .451", .4515", and .452" hard cast lead bullets (H&G #68 style SWC, 200 gr) in various .45 ACP pistols over the years without leading problems. I prefer .451" when I make my own or can buy that size.

 

[Russ5924]

Nothing wrong with using a cast bullet. I use them in all my calibers from 9mm to 45 Colt with out one problem of leading. I would use the 158G SWC in .358 there is a pile of information on that bullet The only problem I had with leading was a new .357 Blackhawk after shooting about 200 rounds of FMJ never had another problem with it leading

 

[Jeff H]

The only problem I had with leading was a new .357 Blackhawk after shooting about 200 rounds of FMJ never had another problem with it leading

Are you referring to breaking in the barrel with FMJ and then switching to lead or did you mean you have only shot 200 rounds through the gun of FMJ since you stopped using lead so you obviously don't have a leading issue?