.357sig vs. .357mag

[Neal in GA]

I remember reading an article in Guns&Ammo comparing these two both for velocity and accuracy in a variety of guns/barrel lengths (4 each IIRC) when the .357sig was still relatively new on the market. How do they really compare ballistically and effectively from a personal defense standpoint? I would think 12+1 rounds in a P229 of something ballistically equivalent to a .357mag would be a killer SD combination.

 

[TheSniper]

125gr ,they are real close but any heavier grainage ,the mag has better balistics. Even at their closest point(with factory ammo) The Magnum is better.

 

[Eric Larsen]

There are all kinds of comparions. OSS's, energy, velocity bla bla bla. The fact is from a shorter barrel gun the Sig is ahead of the Mag just slightly...ballistically speaking. At 3 1/2"- 4" in barrel length the Mag edges out the Sig and is never seen nor heard from again, in comparing the 2 loads.
Barrel length, model/make of the gun, make of the loads..etc all throw in variable.
Shoot well

 

[355sigfan]

The 357 sig matches the 357 mag with 125 grain loads and thats all that matters. IT was made to duplicate the best 357 mag defence load not the hunting and plinking loads. This it does very well. With longer barrels the sig goes up in velocity too. My Glock 24 with a kkm 357 sig barrel gets between 1550 and 1600 with 125 grain loads.
PAT

 

[krept]

Just a side question...

technically speaking...

doesn't
9mm = .355"
357 SIG = .356" (per specs from... er... Federal?)
.357 Magnum = .357"?

Just wondering!

Also wonder how much effect a larger meplat on the .357 Magnums might have on terminal performance.

 

[355sigfan]

krept



Unless were talking fmj's the size of the met plate does not matter only the expansion of the jhp.
PAT

 

[treeprof]

Krept - 357 SIG is usually a .355 bullet in jacketed form, tho I think a .356 lead. There are some 9 mm bullets that can be loaded into 357 SIG cases, tho the shape is wrong on others (a long nose precludes a good crimp, I think is the problem). Hornady, I believe, uses a regular 9 mm XTP bullet in their 357 SIG ammo

You can look up specs for God Dots here:
http://www.speer-bullets.com/

Link to the Reference Chart under the Bullets link.

Pete's page http://petej55.home.mindspring.com/ is always a useful stop for 357 SIG info. He thinks .3555 is a winner, and metions the original Federal .356 designation.

 

[juliet charley]

The 357 Sig (more accurately, 9mm Sig) is pretty much of a one pony show--125-grain JHP. It is essentially equal to the .357 Magnum up to and including four inch barrels. Once barrel lengths reach five inches or so, it's pretty much a .357 Magnum show (with available factory weapons).

It would probably be preferable to the .357 Magnum for small/concealed applications based on the weapons available.

The Sig really loses out to the magum in versatility--both with factory and handloads. The Magnum can easily obtain velocities with 158-grain bullets that are at the upper of end of the Sig's range with 125-grain.

There is a greater range of weapons available for the Magnum than the Sig--you just have a greater variety of weapons available in the Magnum than in the Sig.

The same holds true in spades with ammunition. There is just simply far more factory ammunition available for the Magnum than the Sig (a real "one pony show"). When it comes to reloading, it's the same, except if anything the Magnum is even more versatile--you can do things with the Magnum from squib loads that probably wouldn't even cyle a Sig pistol to true Magnum loads that would put a Sig's slide in your teeth.

If there ever was an "apples and oragnes" comparison, it the Sig vs Magnum comparison,

 

[MK11]

I agree with everything JC said, only I'm a big fan of the .357 Sig. It's been treated like modern-day snake oil by some people which is too bad. For the self-defense application you're thinking of, I think it's terrific. It's seeing more law enforcement use (Texas DPS, Texas Rangers, Secret Service, VA, NC, NM, etc) and seems to be doing well at this early stage. Massad Ayoob had an article in a recent American Handgunner talking about Richmond, VA using the .357 Sig. In eight or so shootings (a small # to be sure), they only had to fire one shot, the exception being when two officers hosed down an aspiring cop killer as fast as they could pull the triggers.

Shootability is debatable but my P229 was a lot softer than the 2.5 inch 686+ last weekend. Frankly, I'd get rid of my .357 Sigs before my .357 mags and I can understand people saying they don't see a need for it but if it appeals to you, go for it.

And don't forget that .44 really means .429. Nothing wrong with a little creative license as long as the end product delivers.

 

[355sigfan]

The simple fact is the 357 sig is a very good service auto round. Its not a top choice for handgun hunting. But it mimicks the best defensive 357 mag loads made and it duplicates factory 357 mag ballistics inch per inch if barrels lengths are equal. I have tested loads in my sig 239 and 229 and 229 sport (wihich I no longer own) and my glock 33, 31 and 24. I have also tested 357 mag loads in 4 inch and 6 inch revolvers and with 125 grain bullets with factory ammo there is no difference. Also when it comes to versatility with a 357 auto you can buy a 9mm and a 40 barrel and shoot 3 calibers in the same gun. That beats a 357 mag revolver by one caliber. Also if your handgun hunting leave the 357 mag at home and take out the 44 or 454 or 475 or well you get the idea. The 357 mag is a marginal hunting round.

(If there ever was an "apples and oragnes" comparison, it the Sig vs Magnum comparison,) This is false at least when where talking defensive handgun applications. Both of the best loads in these 2 calibers are 125 grain jhp's at 1350 to 1450 fps and both have law enforcement and ccw applications. So its not a Apples to ORANGES comparision its a apples to apples one.


PAT

 

[Tamara]

It's always so cute when someone's sure they've discovered The One True Swordtm.

 

[355sigfan]

It's always so cute when someone's sure they've discovered The One True Swordtm.
END

Its alwasy so cute when someone assumes too much. I don't think the 357 sig is the only good handgun round out there. I also like the 45 acp and the 40sw. I prefer personally the 357 sig but these other rounds have merit too as does the 9mm +p+ and other calibers. Shoot what is the most powerfull (in your mind) hand gun you can shoot well and go from there. I carry a 357 sig at work now as a dope cop. When I was patrol I carried the Glock 21 in 45 acp. I have faith in both weapon systems. Is either the true sword who knows. I will tell you there are far more 45 fans that think its the hammer or thor than their are 357 sig fans that think the 357 sig is Zuess lightning bolt. I also know I have done less desparaging of other calibers than certain other posters who seem to be obsessed with playing cards with animals at the circus. namely ponies.
PAT

 

[krept]

Musashi's answer to the one true sword issue was Nito ryu... hmmm...? I think he was onto something.

When I was asking about the meplat, I was wondering if the larger diameter of the .357's meplat causes more violent expansion of a JHP because of the greater surface area slamming into the target.

I know it's another quasi-esoteric issue on the platter, but it's better than thinking about work on a Friday.

 

[prisoner6]

Also when it comes to versatility with a 357 auto you can buy a 9mm and a 40 barrel and shoot 3 calibers in the same gun. That beats a 357 mag revolver by one caliber.

Well, we could throw in .38 Long Colt for a third, and all without having to change barrels, springs, etc. The .357 Sig seems a very viable defensive round, and I think diversity in choices is nice. But I have to believe that with the variety of loadings available one would be hard pressed to find many more versatile chamberings out of the box than the .357 Magnum.

 

[juliet charley]

Bingo!

Plus a greater choice of weapons for the magnum. For all practical purposes, you are limited to Glocks and Sigs (and the only the P226, P229 and P239--my least favourite models). Yes, I know Beretta makes one--I've yet to find one though. The same is true for HK (and a ridiculous price).

Plus a good long gun selction for the magnum--at least three different makers are currently offering several different models on long guns, and once in a while, you will still see a Timberwolf. (They make pretty good hunting rifle for the smaller-sized medium game.)

Using the .357 Magnum for hunting does seem to receive mixed reviews, but where I live you don't have to go to .44 Magnum, .454, .475, .480 for deer. My much easier to carry, general purpose, Model 27 (five-inch) works just fine if you pick your shots and do your job.

(If there ever was an "apples and oragnes" comparison, it the Sig vs Magnum comparison,)
This is false at least when where talking defensive handgun applications. Both of the best loads in these 2 calibers are 125 grain jhp's at 1350 to 1450 fps and both have law enforcement and ccw applications. So its not a Apples to ORANGES comparision its a apples to apples one.

If you want to limit your choices to full-power 125-grain loads the Sig is close to the Magnum (as acknowledged). If you want to expand your horizons, the Magnum offers effective LE/CCW/SD loads in 110-grains, 145-grains, 158-grains (and even up to 165 and 180 grains)--there are even some very effective .38 Specials loads like the old "FBI Load"--158-grain +P LSWHP.

I just don't understand why some people want the the Sig to be a .357 Magnum so badly--if you want a .357 Magnum, go buy one--they are less expensive to buy and considerably less expensive shoot. If you want apples buy apples--don't buy organges and try to convince yourself (and everybody else) you have apples.

 

[CastleBravo]

The whole "Versatility" thing depends on how you define it. If you mean one caliber good at more than one thing, then .357 Magnum is more versatile than .357 Sig. After all, .40S&W and 9mm are only good for what .357 Sig is good for, i.e. self-defense against humans or punching holes in paper. With .357 Magnum, you can have much better critter performance (though still pretty far from ideal) with hot 158-200gr loads that overpower .357 Sig, .40 S&W and 9mm by a wide margin.

Do I think that's "enough" for mean animals? Not really. But 200gr @ 1150 ft/sec with a really wide, flat-point bullet is alot better than anything .357 Sig can dish out.

.357 Sig isn't (and wasn't meant to be) the autolaoder equivalent of .357 Magnum in all respects, so criticizing it for not doing what it wasn't meant to is silly. If you want an autoloader that can do what .357 Magnum can do (and a bit more) go with 10mm.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Given that the original question was as broad as it was, making no differentiation between bullet weights available for the two rounds, it truly is an apples to oranges scenario.

With a single apple thrown in amongst the oranges for effect's sake.

The .357 Sig is a fine cartridge that was originally designed by Federal and Sig to do one thing, and ONLY one thing -- give ballistics that compared to those found in 125-gr. .357 Mag. loads.

Sig's purpose was to sweep up any remaining market among those police forces that retained their .357 Mag. revolvers solely to take advantage of the known capabilities of the 125-gr. .357 Mag. loadings.

That's not supposition, that information came directly from Sig when I was with American Rifleman magazine, and Rifleman had the FIRST production handguns and ammo to be released. At the time we had it, it was still a very closely guarded industry secret. Each of us who knew of the project had to take an oath that we wouldn't discose the existence of the round or the gun.

 

[355sigfan]

The .357 Sig is a fine cartridge that was originally designed by Federal and Sig to do one thing, and ONLY one thing -- give ballistics that compared to those found in 125-gr. .357 Mag. loads.

Sig's purpose was to sweep up any remaining market among those police forces that retained their .357 Mag. revolvers solely to take advantage of the known capabilities of the 125-gr. .357 Mag. loadings.
END

THis is correct and it does this very well. Also on the versatility thing I don't have to change springs on my glocks to get the 9mm barrel to work just the mags. If you want to hunt larger critters the 357 mag with hunting loads is better than the 357 sig. This we are agreed but as stated above thats not the sigs reason for being and its a moot point. As to weapon selection you could do a lot worse than being constricted to sigs and glocks with a total seleciton of lets see (sig 229,229sport, 226, 239) 4 and for glock 31,32,33 for 3 thats 7 pistols in a variety of sizes for your needs from concealment guns to duty weapons. ALso if your tastes allow you can buy other brands or you can simply buy a drop in barrel and convert a 40 sw pistol. In 357 mag pistols with few exceptions your stuck with revolvers. And the good ones are Smith, Colt and Ruger.
PAT

 

[krept]

freak out

Note this quote from the first post

How do they really compare ballistically and effectively from a personal defense standpoint?

I didn't see mention of either versatility or hunting.

--- digression stew ----

. Also on the versatility thing I don't have to change springs on my glocks to get the 9mm barrel to work just the mags.

Are you saying that Glocks and Sigs in 9mm have the same headspace as the 357SIG/.40? I thought that an extractor change was due in there.


Dont forget about the .22 LR conversions for some of the pistols as well.

Oh yeah, and Dan Wessons are great revolvers with the other three.

I just don't understand why some people want the the Sig to be a .357 Magnum so badly

I don't see this. I see a cartridge that has virtually duplicated an effective MANstopper in a platform that offers distinct advantages for that particular task.

apples and oranges are both fruit

 

[355sigfan]

Are you saying that Glocks and Sigs in 9mm have the same headspace as the 357SIG/.40? I thought that an extractor change was due in there.

END

Nope you don't need to there is enough tolerance overlapp between the two rounds that they both fire fine. I have not had problems with a sig 229 and a Glock 27 that were so equiped. I did have to change mags and in the sig I had to swap the recoil spring. Thats all.
PAT