.357 Snubbie size comparison please...

[Onslaught]

I'd first like to point out that, in well over 1500 posts, this is my first EVER in the revolver forum

Anyway, I think I'm in the market for a pocket .357/.38, and I'd like to see who's the SMALLEST of them all.

In concealed hammer, 5 shot, 2" snubbies, is there any size difference between the small frame Taurus revolvers (651 Protector) and the J frame Smiths (340PD). I'm hoping someone here has both, so they can give a side by side comparison of width, height, length, etc...

I realize that the S&W will be a bit lighter, but in .357 magnum, I keep hearing that there's such a thing as "too light " There's also about $200 difference between a Scandium Smith and a "Total Titanium" Taurus, so that's a plus. I have no concerns over Taurus quality, so that's not an issue. I also no longer participate in the "Boycott" of S&W (personal preference, no need for discussion here).

Thanks for the input...

 

[22lovr]

Here's my take.....

Hello Onslaught:
I'm responding because I'm in the market for the "lightest/smallest" snubby out there also!

In terms of both weight and size, I don't think anything out there can touch Smith and Wesson's Model 340PD in .357 mag at 12 oz unloaded. Only the 342PD in .38 spcl weighs less at 11 oz. Although I've not owned either a Smith 340 or Taurus Total Titanium, I HAVE owned a Smith mod 638 "Bodyguard" and two Taurus: Mod 85 ultralite and Mod 605 in .357 mag. The Taurus mod 85 total titanium with bobbed hammer in .38 spcl weighs a bit over 13 oz.

The stock grips on most of the Smith snubbies are dimensionally smaller than the stock Taurus models as the latter have a rubber grip that completely enclose the backstrap whereas the Smiths do not.

Dimensionally, the Smith and the Taurus are almost identical in size: about 6 5/8" long, approx 4" high and a little over 1" at the cylinder. I put aftermarket grips on my Taurus and it is pretty much the same size as the Smith Mod 638.

My Taurus mod 605 is their compact 5-shot .357 mag revolver in SS. It weighs in at 24 oz and I believe all the Taurus CIA models weigh about the same. For my purposes, 24 oz is way too heavy for continuous full-time pocket carry. For me, anything over one pound (handgun, ammo, and pocket holster) gets annoying after a few hours of being lugged around. Anything under that weight seems to be the right combination.

For self-defense, having had experience with both .38 spcl and .357 mag, I'm opting for the .38 spcl for my self-defense full-time carry piece. Right now, I'm zeroing in on the Mod 342PD with the concealed hammer and dark gray finish.

I hope this near-future purchase will be the last self-defense carry piece I'll ever have to buy. (did I someone out there say "fat chance??")

As far as quality, even though I've had no trouble with my snubbies, I'm going to probably buy the Smith this time. I've read and heard much about the particularly excellent shootability of the 342PD. Am I going to shoot it a lot? What's "a lot?" I'll shoot it enough to stay proficient but nothing like some of the other guns I own. What do they say? "Shot little, carried a lot."

In summary, weight, even more than size, is critical for pocket carry. I've carried all of the above (mod 638, mod 85, mod 605) and they all seem a little heavy after awhile. For comparison, I could carry the Kahr MK40 around in my pocket because it surely is small enough but I can't hack the almost 24 oz unloaded weight.

Good gun-hunting!

 

[Eric Larsen]

Ill disagree a tad on the size issue...I had the CIA, M60 and my SP at the same time and tried them in many holsters...mostly molded hard shell types.
The J frame is the smallest..even with the Lady's 2 1/8" barrel, it still hid better in pocket than the others. Dimensionally, on paper they appear quite similar...visually and handling them, the CIA and SP are Identical in size and weight. My CIA would not go into a J frame holster..but would fit snugly in my SP holsters. The J frame was the same weight as the others...all are within 2 oz's of each other.
The M60 would carry better in pocket or IWB, than the others. The CIA and SP were almost identical for pocket carry..the SP had a little larger grip and actually printed less than the CIA did. HMM?

After ALOT of playing, shooting, caressing and such....I had to sell 2 of them.....being a nut for 357's...I kept the SP. It would have a nice and happier life with full house loads..and it felt the best to me.....especially with the Butler Creek Boot grip.....

Its in my pocket as I write this.....I still believe the others were very very very nice snubs. Ill get another M60...or a nice 340/360/640/940...well you get the idea
Shoot well

 

[kalibear45]

I own a S&W 640-1 in stainless and me (being a big dude). The weight does not bother me, its quite manageable. I heard those lighter frames pack a wallop though specially in the magnum cartridges

 

[john kilgore]

Owning a 337-Ti w/3" bbl and adjustable sights(.38spl), as well as a Ruger SP101 in .357, weight is not your enemy if you actually shoot +P or magnums.
Recoil is fierce and has to be experienced to be appreciated in these small light guns.
It is reassuring to have magnums loaded in these things, but in an actual shooting incident, the recoil and muzzle blast will limit your ability to get of rapid aimed shots. Plus, your hearing will be permanantly damaged. (That might be nice though- you won't hear the jury find against you for using "excessive force")
Realistically, the advantage of the .357 over the .38+P is mostly psychologial in the shooters mind.
If you need a really light .357 bore gun, get either the Smith or Taurus w/alloy (Al,or Ti) and practice,practice,practice, with standard .38 and carry the +P for protection.
The chambering of the magnum is to satify the magnumitis of purchasers.
If you need a Magnum, get at least a L-frame Smith or GP-100 Ruger w/4" bbl.
Shoot-out evaluations have shown that it's the first shot in less than 1.5 seconds that hits its intended mark that decides the confrontation, not the caliber or power of cartridge fired as long as it does what is intended; this includes the .32's and .22's.

When I need a small light weight gun, I carry a Tarus 95 Lite-9 in .22lr. It actually gets shot and "used" far more than either of its more powerful brethren.

 

[Frenchy]

In general terms, I'm not sure why anyone would want something that small stoked with the 357. Any of the standard or +P personal defense loads in the 38 caliber should be quite effective.
Being able to practice a lot with the load you'll be carrying is a definite advantage.

 

[OkieCruffler]

The Taurus CIA is definately larger than the S&W. I found what I thought was the perfect IWB, but when I tried the CIA in it, it was a no go. So I tried it in every other J=frame holster I could find and it was the same deal, too wide thru the cylinder. My CIA weighs 25oz unloaded, but I like that added weight, especially when shooting full=power .357's. Don't like the thought of touching off .357's in a titanium pistol. If I want pain I'll just tell The Wife that her bum looks fat.

 

[Eric Larsen]

I agree ...the mag rounds arent bad at all, with a 16oz or heavier gun. My SP gets a hundred or so rounds thru it every range session...depends on what ammo Ive been able to pick up....
I with someone locally had a good deal on 125gr JHP's....
Shoot well

 

[22lovr]

I'm also a .357 fancier, but..but...but

I'd rather shoot those full-house loads at the range (I actually get a thrill from all that noise, recoil, and muzzle flash) but still cannot lug my 24 oz mod 605 around all day in-the-pocket.

Aye, Eric, you're a tougher man than I !! The SP101 has to be at least 27 oz unloaded. Neither would I especially like the idea of emptying a cylinder of .357 rounds from a Smith Scandium mod 340 either! I'd probably enjoy it but my hand would hate me for days on end.

Sooooo, I'll stick to my .38sp J-frame for pocket carry.

 

[Onslaught]

It is reassuring to have magnums loaded in these things, but in an actual shooting incident, the recoil and muzzle blast will limit your ability to get of rapid aimed shots....

Respectfully, have you ever fired a pistol to defend your life? I have not, but have been told by three seperate police officers who were involved in shootings first hand (in a Criminal Justice course) that you don't hear the gunshot, don't feel the recoil, etc. And even if I did feel the very stout recoil, only rounds 2 - 5 run the RISK of being affected, which should only matter if round 1 didn't do any good.

Realistically, the advantage of the .357 over the .38+P is mostly psychologial in the shooters mind.

Bad info...
125gr .357 magnum - 1450fps
.38 special 125gr +P - 1000fps
450FPS, or put another way, nearly 50% higher velocity from the exact same bullet, is far from psychological.

Shoot-out evaluations have shown that it's the first shot in less than 1.5 seconds that hits its intended mark that decides the confrontation, not the caliber or power of cartridge fired as long as it does what is intended; this includes the .32's and .22's.

Whos stats are these? This too, I believe to be bad data. If all that mattered was "first shot in less than 1.5 seconds that hits its intended mark" then the FBI should just arm all it's agents with .32's and teach them to shoot very accurately very quickly. This is just plain false data you've been given. There are so many documented cases of police shootings that multiple hits to center mass with a duty-sized caliber did nothing to stop an attacker from seriously harming or killing someone before the attacker finally fell dead from blood loss.
Except for the psychological effects of being shot, the ONLY way to effectively and immediately stop an attack with a .22lr or .25, etc. is to actually hit the CNS. It could take literally HOURS to "bleed out" from a .22.

When I need a small light weight gun, I carry a Tarus 95 Lite-9 in .22lr. It actually gets shot and "used" far more than either of its more powerful brethren.

Your choice, but I will not be trusting any .22lr or .32acp to defend my life or that of my wife and 6 month old daughter just for the convenience of super-light weight and low recoil. My family is more valuable to me than that. Valuable enough that I will practice with .38's, then .38 +P's, Med. Velocity .357's, etc... And if I get to a point that the recoil of a particular round is so absolutely intolerable or unsafe that I can't fire five rounds in a row, then I'll drop down a step. If that step ends at .38+p, at least I didn't limit myself from the OPTION of trying the .357 magnum loads...

This pistol will have one purpose. Carry to protect family and self. I have plenty of .22's, 9mm's, .45's, etc. to shoot for fun. I will practice with it not because it's easy and painless to shoot, but because it's neccessary.

 

[MrAcheson]

You may not "feel" the recoil under stress but it will still effect your shooting. You will just be busy doing other things. Likewise you may not hear the shots but your ears will still be ringing afterwards. Part of the reason many individuals don't like the Weaver stance for self defense is that you can't "feel" enough and Weaver depends on complex muscle control more than isosceles, etc.

Furthermore out of a 2" tube the difference between .357 and .38+P is significant but not as significant as your data shows. Those look a lot more like 4" numbers to me.

Lastly on the first hit wins the majority of gunfights. This is probably true. I would start running once I was hit if that was an survivable option in the scenario. However the majority may only be 2 out of 3 shootings. When you train and plan for self defense it should be to win all 3.

 

[p8riot]

Colt Magnum Carry

I bought one of these new back in 1999 (the only year they made them). It's still new (complete with all paperwork), stainless, fires .357, has a 1-7/8 inch barrel and is for sale (at the right price).

 

[Eric Larsen]

I played with the Colt 357 the other day...very nice gun. I heard they only made them for about 6-8 months..and then stopped due to their financial situation. Its a very very nice gun...slightly bigger than most snubs though.....much like a 617 Taurus in size.
Shoot well

 

[p8riot]

Colt Magnum Carry

I've been mulling over selling this gun for a long time. I've had it for 3 years now and it hasn't seen it's first round yet, thinking that I had a collector's item of sorts. Sure I probably could make about a $200 profit on the gun, but the reason I bought it was as a reliable carry gun to supplement my Sig P-229. I think that I am going to put a box or two or three through it anyway.

From everything that I've read in this forum, and others, people seem to like this gun as a carry piece. Despite being all stainless, it doesn't seem really heavy, it's balanced really well (especially loaded), and is a natural pointer, the action is really smooth (almost like someone did a trigger job on it), there's no play in the cylinder and a borescope shows almost perfect cylinder alignment with the barrel on all chambers.

Sure there's going to be muzzle flash, and recoil may be a slight problem (I'm a big guy), but judicious re-loading can tame some of that. I think I just talked myself out of selling this gun and using it for it's intended purpose.

Now can anyone tell me where I can get speedloaders for it? I've been thinking about using the ones from my old Detective Special, they fit, but they hang.

 

[Eric Larsen]

The speedloader issue shouldnt be a problem. Any same caliber/cylinder setup should work...if Im not completely up in the night.
Where it hangs", may be a grip issue..the stock grip on my SP would hang on some loaders....I found a better speedloader and a better grip.
Look around..youll find one.

Shoot well

 

[Herb Leventhal]

357

Onslaught:
I couldn't agree with you more! I own may revolvers and few pistols of many calibers. I have searched for the best concealed carry weapon for 30 years (almost like the holy grail).
Conclusion as of 10/6/02:
If I have to wear a jacket and tie: a Seecamp 32 caliber pistol rides in a holster inside the belt over my left lower quadrant. If I am not restricted by dress code I use a small Bianchi fanny pack with either a S&W 640 or 649 with 5 CorBon 357 caliber bullets. Call it psychological or whatever but I feel my wife and family are very well protected with the 357 revolver. I also practice with both of these assets every 2-3 months.
My weekly pleasure at the range is 100 rounds through a S&W 629 44 magnum with factory equiv handloaded magnums. Life can be so good!
Herb

 

[PsychoSword]

I own a S&W 640-1 in stainless and me (being a big dude). The weight does not bother me, its quite manageable. I heard those lighter frames pack a wallop though specially in the magnum cartridges

I used to have a Taurus 415T Titanium .41 magnum with the 2 1/2" barrel. The recoil will get to you a little bit after about 100 rounds of 210gr. Remington or Federal. I eventually sold the gun because it developed a problem with the cylinder lock at the bottom where it wouldn't always pop into the groove at the bottom, even though the cylinder was lined up perfectly with the barrel. I will never buy a Taurus again. My next big magnum will probably be a S&W 629 .44 magnum w/ 6.5" barrel or else a S&W Scandium .357 J frame.

 

[Eric Larsen]

Actually the difference spoken of, is about correct from the 357 to the 38 spec. The numbers are more like 1250 vs 900 FPS from a snub barrel, but the energy is still near doubled for the Mag in the end. Just a note
Shoot well