.357 Mag Loads with WAP?

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Cheapo

New member
Has anyone heard of load development for the .357 Mag with WW's WAP powder? I want to get away from the huge flash of 296, but keep velocities at 1450 fps with 125 gr bullets from a 6 inch barrel.

Even though Winchester is discontinuing the powder, I'd still like to get a few years of shooting in with a small supply of WAP.

Thanks in advance,
Cheapo
 
W

Walt Welch

New member
Cheapo; I don't find any loads for WAP in the .357 in the downloadable reloading manual at the Winchester site, or in the Lyman Pistol and Reloading Handbook.

Therefore, I cannot recommend this powder for this use. Be safe, use recommended, tested loads.

Walt Welch, NRA Life Member, Reloader since 1955.
 
C

Cheapo

New member
Since the .357 Mag is longer and a tad looser than the 9x23 Winchester (or whatever the number is), I had hoped that the greater case capacity would allow similar or even faster velocities at .357 Mag pressure levels.

The Winchester book could be partially blamed, IMO, for any low sales of WAP powder. They list loads for only 231 and 296, two powders on the opposite ends of the semi-reliable "burn rate" scale.

I had hoped that some other bullet makers had developed WAP loads for .357 Mag. Since they operate .40 S&W loads within .357 pressure limits, it seemed reasonably possible. The 9x23 Win loads go up to 46,000 PSI (don't recall if that's copper or piezoelectric), which is even higher than the .357's max. I would seem that performance at the appropriate pressure levels would not be a problem.

Now, if WAP does hinky things in less than 80% loading density, I would anticipate a problem. But, this is not exactly like the 10 grains of Unique problem in the .45-70...

Oh well, I'll just search for another powder that doesn't take a huge pile (like 296, H110, 2400, etc.) to reach full-power velocities. Does Blue Dot flash a lot?

Thanks!
 
F

fal308

Staff Alumnus
Cheapo
Have you tried Vitha Vouhri(?) powders yet. That's what I've turned to in my 45s and 44s. I get a little more velocity without any visible higher pressure signs. And yes I've stayed within the recommended loadings. Not as much muzzle flash out of my 44s anymore either.
 
C

Cheapo

New member
I've been trying to stick with U.S.-made powders, more out of a desire for really reliable supply regardless of what other nations do.

But if the Finns are more responsive to the market with more extensive load data than the bums at W-W will publish, maybe I'll just go with their powders.

The local supply factor is why I'm trying to find out how the flash is from Blue Dot, Herco, and other Alliant powders. I'm pretty sure 2400 is a lot like WW296, and I know firsthand that H110 from Hogdon is much like 296...

Thanks for the info!
 
J

JHS

New member
If you are trying to get away from flash, don't use 2400. I used alot of it several years ago.It didn't bother me in the daylght but in the dark,it will blind you.
 
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Walt Welch

New member
Cheapo; you can find VV powder reloading data at the site mentioned in one of my longwinded posts about Mag Primers.

I use H-110 and 2400 for .357 and .44 Mag. I cannot say that I have noticed a significant difference in flash.

In daylight, the 8 3/8 bbl. .44 Mag produces an orange ball about the size of a volley ball. It is amazing how many places on the range open up around me <g>. Walt
 
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Contender

New member
Cheapo, Any time you burn powder especially a slow burner (296,H110,2400) at magnum pressures you are going to get considerable flash. If you try to switch to a quicker burner say for economy, you will reach max pressure before you achieve the same velocity with the slow burner within reason. I think what they call a "balanced load" is one where the powder charge fills at least 2/3 the case WHEN you are using a safe published load. A partially filled,Low density,load is prone to experience powder shifting in the case and SOMETIMES results in inconsistant loads. Especially with a large capacity case. Have Fun.
 
C

Contender

New member
Cheapo, Any time you burn powder especially a slow burner (296,H110,2400) at magnum pressures you are going to get considerable flash. If you try to switch to a quicker burner say for economy, you will reach max pressure before you achieve the same velocity with the slow burner within reason. I think what they call a "balanced load" is one where the powder charge fills at least 2/3 the case WHEN you are using a safe published load. A partially filled,Low density,load is prone to experience powder shifting in the case and SOMETIMES results in inconsistant loads. Especially with a large capacity case. Have Fun.
 
C

Contender

New member
Cheapo, Anytime you burn a slow burning powder at max pressures in a handgun (read short barrel), you will get considerable muzzle flash. If you try to switch to a faster burning powder, say for economy, the velocity will fall off because max pressures are reached before the velocity is achieved. It is a tradeoff situation. Pick a good medium burner and live with alittle less velocity. Unique used to be the old standby for this duty because it had good loading density but, it is tough to measure accurately in a measure in the smaller amounts.
 
C

Cheapo

New member
Contender:
Yeah, I used Unique about 10 years ago in some .38 Special loads, and even a few Mags, and was pleased with the overall results. Lower charge weight (mass for you techies) in some cartridges seems to be offset by some mysterious offsetting "quickburn" effect of the fluffier individual charge. Or something like that. So with Unique, charge volume appears to be important, so any old measure works...

My dad has been trying to get away from Unique for years, because of the inconsistent charge weight, and the slightly dirty residue factors. I *like* how uniformly the ball-type powders measure (and my focus right now is on finding such a propellant to replace 296), but there seems to really be no strong rational reason to avoid Unique. "Burns clean" just isn't that important to me.

I have one report that Blue Dot flashes less than 2400 and H110. Anybody have a firsthand account of _how much_ "less" is? My 296 loads produce a white-yellow fireball between six and eight inches in diameter. I could serve as a forward observer illuminating hostile targets for my squad with that equipment!
 
C

Contender

New member
Cheapo, sorry for the multiple posts, had a snafu here with the computer. I'm a shooter not a computer techie. If I'm not mistaken, 296 and H110 are not supposed to be used with light bullets in magnum handgun rounds. Not enough bullet pull or inertia I think resulting in improper combustion. All of Hercules powders seem to be on the dirty side due to the use of graphite as the main deterent coating. I have not personally used blue dot but, have read it is supposed to be good in the 357.
 
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Cheapo

New member
No big deal on the multi-posts, Contender. These things happen.

Just don't get me started on my rant about Microsoft software crashing when used with other MS software and/or MS operating systems. And people wonder why we're reluctant to endorse "smart gun" technology!

"FREEZE!!! Now DROP your weapon!!! Wait, I gotta re-boot my gun..."

Re: the powder choices--I'm now mulling over whether to load some with a friend's Blue Dot, or just buying a can of something else like Universal Clays.
 
C

Contender

New member
Cheapo, I hear pretty good reviews of universal clays. You might try HS-6 I use it in my 44 Mag in "midrange" loads and it works well. Hodgdon has some good loads in their manual for the 357 using it. For my treestand gun (8 3/8" M686) I use either H110 or 2400 under a Hard cast150gr.OWC (ogival wadcutter). They also work well for target shooting in mid-range loads.

Take Care
 
B

BILLY D.

New member
Cheapo

Ramshot Silhouette And Wap Are Supposed? To Be Very Similar So I Would Use Ramshot Data To Build The Wap Loads. Start Low And Work Up The Loads Naturally.

There Is A Thread Hidden Away Somewhere In This Forum That Discusses The Wap And Silhouette Similarities. But I Can't Find It.

Maybe Someone Else Will Chime In About It.

Good Luck.
 
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WESHOOT2

New member
ding!

WAP is for crap in the 357; way too much granular residue to be considered reliable (see, them kernels of goodness can get stuck in places that JAM up your revolver flat solid stuck).

Silhouette is 'enhanced' WAP (added flash suppressant and burn-temperature-reducing additives); utterly perfect in 9x19, 9x21, 38 Super, 40 S&W, and a few others....

LOW-FLASH high-performance 357 loads can be developed using Vihtavuori Oy 3N37, N350, and N110.
Yep.
 
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