357 mag buffalo bore load duplication.

[Shadow9mm]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

So I found this video on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imcKcKxI6DU&list=PLR31ON9P7uqCedvduzglvyOkA8n6B2G5Y&index=11

It shows initial testing of the "HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Ammo" Buffalo bore load, a tear down of the cartridge, His analysis, and his duplication of the load with a similarly styled bullet using Hodgdon Lil'gun. Based on his finding they were loaded with 15.8g of Hodgdon Lil' Gun, which is 0.8g over listed max. However that max is listed with with 180g nosler partitions.

I have 100 of the Montana bullet works 180g that he used that should be here Monday. I'm hoping to find some time in the next couple weeks to work this load up from start of 13.0 to max of 15.0, and if things are acting normal, SLOWLY push up to the 15.8 (0.8 over max) over he used.

Will be using a 6in Ruger GP100 for testing. will be running the loads over a chronograph.

Have any of you guys tried similar loads, or pushed Lil gun hard in 357? thoughts about the this workup would be appreciated.

Montana bullet works bullets
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/357-noe-180gr-wfn-gc/

Buffalo Bore load
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=396

 

[44 AMP]

thoughts about the this workup would be appreciated.

Be careful what you wish for....you might get it!

And understand here, I am speaking ONLY as a private individual, giving you my personal opinions.

SO, first, let's take a look at the basic assumptions you are starting with.

Buffalo Bore has a reputation for not disclosing what their ammo formula's are. Nor are they obliged to. They won't tell you what powder is used, or how much, or what measured pressures are. Again, they're not obligated to do that. They state their ammo is safe, and what it is safe in. If you don't care for that policy, use someone else's ammo.

A guy on Utube....

It shows initial testing of the "HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN Pistol and Handgun Ammo" Buffalo bore load, a tear down of the cartridge, His analysis, and his duplication of the load with a similarly styled bullet using Hodgdon Lil'gun. Based on his finding they were loaded with 15.8g of Hodgdon Lil' Gun, which is 0.8g over listed max. However that max is listed with with 180g nosler partitions.

The issues I have with this is taking things at apparent face value. First, the bullet. Similar but not identical. Since both are lead, gas checked and the same weight and hardness, not being exactly the same is not as big a deal as it would be with lead vs Jacketed, or different jacketed slugs.

BIG issue with his identification of the powder. It's "by eye" and that is notoriously unreliable. First, there are commerical powders that look virtually identical, but are different, and second, there are powders NOT available to the reloader that are used by ammo makers, which my APPEAR the same as canister grade reloading powder but can be quite different in their pressure and burn rate characteristics.

In other words, he's GUESSING it's "Lil Gun" because it looks like Lil gun, and he has no proof beyond that. And then, because he thinks its Lil Gun, he notes that the charge weight is above Hodgon's max for Lil Gun with a different bullet!! And a jacketed bullet (Nosler partition) at that!

Now, I have no problem with the idea of you working up a Lil Gun load for the bullets you are going to get, and the gun that you have, provided you do it in the recommended manner of taking SMALL steps and carefully looking for changes, so that you can stop before you reach a level that might be dangerous. It's what you should do! Your gun isn't their test gun. Your components, no matter how closely you try to match them, are not identical to what was tested.

EVERY combination of gun and ammo components AND the way the ammo is assembled has the potential to be different. Usually the differences are small enough that we can use other people's data as GUIDELINES. NOT laws or holy writ.

Which brings up another point, about listed MAX loads. WHY does a particular set of data list a certain load as MAX? ANd a different set of data list a different load as their MAX? What is the MAX load??

Well, its where the testers decided to stop, with the material they had to test. Why they stop there can be a number of different reasons. Could be they reached the SAAMI standard max pressure. Could be they began getting undesirable results. Could be a number of things. One thing its not, its not the "blow up level" of a gun in proper working condition.

While not a perfect comparison, think about traffic signs, particularly speed limit signs. The white ones are the statutory limits, exceed and you can get fined. Yellow ones are recommended limits, such as on a curve, and are intended as "max" safe speed for everything on the road.

A semi truck taking that 25mph posted curved on ramp may only be safe at 25, your sports car might do it safely at 40. You're exceeding the posted max limit, but you're still safe. But that same sports car will sail off the road if you take that curve at 80...

Maybe I'm driving a top heavy rig that isn't even safe at 25, if I KNOW that (or even suspect it), then I'll only do 15...

point here is that max safe speed depends on individual factors and the road signs (published data) is intended to cover everything safely.

I've had gun and ammo combinations where I got pressure signs and unsuitable performance BEFORE getting to listed max levels. I've also had guns and loads that surpassed listed max levels with no indication of anything out of the usual.

Work up your loads in the approved fashion. If you get any unsuitable results, STOP there. IF that's below listed book max, than that's what it is. If you get to listed max, and decide to keep going, that's your choice and all results good or bad are your responsibility and no one else's.

Not every gun is suitable for every load possible. Don't rely on what you think (or someone else tells you) it ought to be, rely on what you have tested and proven is, or isn't.

I use 2400 in my .357 Mag loads, I don't have any personal experience with Lil Gun, but the principles I've referred to here are consistent. Details can vary but the principles hold. Don't assume an un-named powder is what it looks like. Work up loads in YOUR gun with YOUR combination of components and you'll know what works and what doesn't in YOUR gun.

Other people's results with their guns are a useful starting point, but are not necessarily what your gun will do.

Note that in the video, the 4" Ruger he used got speeds Buffalo Bore says they got from a 6". A different 4" pistol could get different speeds with that same ammo.

BE safe, good luck!

 

[74A95]

Buffalo Bore has a reputation for not disclosing what their ammo formula's are. Nor are they obliged to. They won't tell you what powder is used, or how much, or what measured pressures are. Again, they're not obligated to do that. They state their ammo is safe, and what it is safe in. If you don't care for that policy, use someone else's ammo.

This should read;

"Buffalo Bore, Remington, Winchester, Federal, Speer, and all commercial ammo manufacturers have a reputation for not disclosing what their ammo formula's are. Nor are they obliged to. They won't tell you what powder is used, or how much, or what measured pressures are. Again, they're not obligated to do that. They state their ammo is safe, and what it is safe in. If you don't care for that policy, use someone else's ammo."

 

[Shadow9mm]

I'm clear. I have been able to find no specific load data for this load, so I am kind of having to experiment a bit, something I am not super fond of. I did some load research, this is what I was able to pull together.

Hodgdon listed a max with lil'gun of 15.0 at a CUP of 34500 with the a-frame.
Speer has info for a 170g JSP at a max of 15.4g.
lee has loads for H Lil' gun with 180g "jacketed" listex max of 15.0g at 34500cup
Lyman had no data for Lil'g in 357
Hornady had no data for lil gun in 357

From what I have researched the MAX cup is 45,000, most of the max loads listed are a good bit below that. but I know pressure can build quick.

Also, lead being softer than copper it should take the rifling more easily than a hardened copper jacket. Lead bullets are also lubricated. Also with the lead having lube grooves that should reduce the bearing surface as well.

My plan is to go from 13.0 to 15.0 in 0.2g increments looing for pressure signs. Fire one over the chronograph, check for pressure signs on the brass and stiff ejection. Fire 4 more to get initial chronograph data so I can look for spikes or jumps n velocity, then check those 4 as well for pressure signs and ejection. If I hit issues, I will stop, regardless of where I am at. If I am able to get to max, and things are acting normal, I will continue testing, but probably in 0.1g increments towards the 0.8 over max.

I will also starting with a clean gun, and be checking frequently for barrel leading and buildup.

The target is above 1400fps. However I have seen velocities in the 1450 to 1490fps range in youtube chronograph testing with 6in guns.

Slow and steady is how I am taking it. Slow and steady. I value my hands, eyes, face, and gun, I assure you. I just wish I had some concrete load data for what I am working with.

Trying to do my homework.

 

[44 AMP]

Also, lead being softer than copper it should take the rifling more easily than a hardened copper jacket. Lead bullets are also lubricated.

You're partly right. Copper, being harder than lead takes more force for the rifling to dig in and engrave than lead needs.

BUT, copper is also more "slick" than lead, so, once the rifling engraves, it slides more easily down the bore. Why do you think lead bullets are lubricated? To help keep the lead from sticking to the steel of the barrel. Because lead is "sticky" compared to copper.

 

[Shadow9mm]

You're partly right. Copper, being harder than lead takes more force for the rifling to dig in and engrave than lead needs.

BUT, copper is also more "slick" than lead, so, once the rifling engraves, it slides more easily down the bore. Why do you think lead bullets are lubricated? To help keep the lead from sticking to the steel of the barrel. Because lead is "sticky" compared to copper.

I tried to do some digging earlier but could not come up with anything. Was looking for the frictional coefficients for copper vs lubricated lead.

 

[603Country]

Why is it so important to duplicate the Buffalo Bore load? Anyway, be careful going above Max.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Why is it so important to duplicate the Buffalo Bore load? Anyway, be careful going above Max.

Do you have a better way to get a 180g gas checked lead bullet up to the 1400-1499fps range safely, other than longer barrel?

I currently have Lil'gun, power pistol, hp-38, CFE Pistol, and #7. might be able to bum some H110 off a friend of need be but lil gun is right up there and seems to be less fussy. Or I could look for a new powder.

 

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Buffalo Bore has a reputation for not disclosing what their ammo formula's are. Nor are they obliged to. They won't tell you what powder is used, or how much, or what measured pressures are. Again, they're not obligated to do that. They state their ammo is safe, and what it is safe in. If you don't care for that policy, use someone else's ammo.

This should read;

"Buffalo Bore, Remington, Winchester, Federal, Speer, and all commercial ammo manufacturers have a reputation for not disclosing what their ammo formula's are. Nor are they obliged to. They won't tell you what powder is used, or how much, or what measured pressures are. Again, they're not obligated to do that. They state their ammo is safe, and what it is safe in. If you don't care for that policy, use someone else's ammo."

And this last one should note that all the listed commercial ammo manufacturers EXCEPT BUFFALO BORE build their ammo to SAAMI specifications, where Buffalo Bore has notably elected to ignore SAAMI.

So if the goal is to duplicate a Buffalo Bore product, especially the particular products that brand themselves as "heavy", know going in that Buffalo Bore neither confirms or denies that they don't follow SAAMI but they have shown clearly in some of their products that they do in fact ignore SAAMI.

Note further that Hodgdon Lil'Gun is a fine powder for reaching high velocity with .357 Magnum, but it also has a reputation for barrel and forcing cone erosion, badly enough that Freedom Arms suggests not using this powder and that Freedom Arms is one of very few gunmakers that knows and fully supports that their customer base handloads for their revolvers. Freedom has even offered load data on their site and sold handloading components too.

 

[Shadow9mm]

And this last one should note that all the listed commercial ammo manufacturers EXCEPT BUFFALO BORE build their ammo to SAAMI specifications, where Buffalo Bore has notably elected to ignore SAAMI.

So if the goal is to duplicate a Buffalo Bore product, especially the particular products that brand themselves as "heavy", know going in that Buffalo Bore neither confirms or denies that they don't follow SAAMI but they have shown clearly in some of their products that they do in fact ignore SAAMI.

Note further that Hodgdon Lil'Gun is a fine powder for reaching high velocity with .357 Magnum, but it also has a reputation for barrel and forcing cone erosion, badly enough that Freedom Arms suggests not using this powder and that Freedom Arms is one of very few gunmakers that knows and fully supports that their customer base handloads for their revolvers. Freedom has even offered load data on their site and sold handloading components too.

I actually contacted buffalo bore a while back. They stated that they do conform to SAAMI where there is SAAMI data to go off of. For example +P+ loads, or say +P 45 colt which have no SAAMI specification.

In relation to Lil'Gun burning hot and tearing up barrels. I did a little reading, and will probably do some more. I'm still undecided. From what I read they fired 50 rounds of each load type, full power h110 and lil gun, and a reduced lil gun. they stated the gun got so hot you could only hold it by the grip. this would indicate to me rapid fire. I have had my gun get pretty warm before, with different powders. but even with lil gun I could always hold it.

However you offer me a problem without a solution which does me little good. If not lil'gun then what?

I did a quick study on H110 based on some of my reading. with the exception of some seirra data that seems a bit on the high side, none of the loads will get me where I am trying to go.

 

[74A95]

And this last one should note that all the listed commercial ammo manufacturers EXCEPT BUFFALO BORE build their ammo to SAAMI specifications, where Buffalo Bore has notably elected to ignore SAAMI.

So if the goal is to duplicate a Buffalo Bore product, especially the particular products that brand themselves as "heavy", know going in that Buffalo Bore neither confirms or denies that they don't follow SAAMI but they have shown clearly in some of their products that they do in fact ignore SAAMI.

Your evidence?

 

[Sevens]

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=29

 

[Sevens]

However you offer me a problem without a solution which does me little good. If not lil'gun then what?

I offer you a problem?!

¿Hablo englis?

 

[74A95]

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=29

It's only a couple of calibers they load over SAAMI specs, and they indicate which ones they are and what guns they are safe/not safe in. Same thing with Underwood.

 

[Shadow9mm]

I offer you a problem?!

¿Hablo englis?

Yes. You said don't use lil'gun because it burns hot and can cause premature throat wear. That is the problem. But you offer no other options to get a 180g up above 1400. Thus you offer no solution. Also, I have seen no evidence of it tearing up guns. Just a few forum posts with no to minimal load data and no pics or measurements to show excessive wear.

 

[Sevens]

In fact, I said nothing of the sort. Precisely what I said is captured wholly in post #9.

Twice now in this discussion you’ve attempted to put words in my mouth and failed. Grow up.

I fully support chasing velocity in handloads if that’s what a handloader wishes to do. I find the subject interesting. The chip on your shoulder is not at all interesting.

 

[Sevens]

It's only a couple of calibers they load over SAAMI specs, and they indicate which ones they are and what guns they are safe/not safe in. Same thing with Underwood.

Right, so apparently we agree and what I wrote was factual. Fantastic.

My point was two-fold. First is that Buffalo Bore (and other boutique ammo manufacturers) don’t always adhere to SAAMI specs, which is perfectly fine. Neither do all handloaders and that’s acceptable also. But it is worth pointing out that if your goal is to chase a load they market, it’s relevant to note that they’ve built a reputation for dodging SAAMI when they choose to do so.

And the other point is that a known outfit who’s depth of knowledge and skill is noteworthy has published and disseminated their opinion of Lil’Gun.

-NONE- if any of that is me saying “oh gosh, don’t do it!”

I’m merely saying that it’s relevant to the subject.

 

[Sevens]

For what it’s worth, Alliant publishes load data for a 170 grain Gold Dot in .357 Magnum running Alliant Power Pro 300-MP and returns 1,620 fps with their 10-inch barrel.

The bullet is 10 grains lighter than your 180 but Alliant’s lofty result is substantially beyond your 1,400fps threshold.

I’ve burned a ton of this powder and most of it has been in .357 Magnum under jacketed 125’s and 158’s. I really love it in .357 Magnum and I’m ready to buy my second 8-lb’er of it but in my experience, Alliant was on a peyote trip when they published their velocities. I would very much love to watch a YouTube video of Alliant techs actually getting the velocities they currently have published with this power and their online load data.

 

[Shadow9mm]

In fact, I said nothing of the sort. Precisely what I said is captured wholly in post #9.

Twice now in this discussion you’ve attempted to put words in my mouth and failed. Grow up.

I fully support chasing velocity in handloads if that’s what a handloader wishes to do. I find the subject interesting. The chip on your shoulder is not at all interesting.

You stated,

Note further that Hodgdon Lil'Gun is a fine powder for reaching high velocity with .357 Magnum, but it also has a reputation for barrel and forcing cone erosion, badly enough that Freedom Arms suggests not using this powder.

Pardon me if, based on this statement. Disuse was not heavily implied although not outright ststed.

 

[TX Nimrod]

What is the OP’s goal with his thread? Is it - as he asked - to obtain the thoughts and opinions of others about his proposed load? Or is it to argue semantics with those who have freely offered their opinions? Seems he’s jacked his own thread and discouraged others from participating…



I’ll bite - I watched that video months ago and dismissed it as a vanity piece trying to show the videographer as a “scientific” experimenter. But it simply exposed him as a fool in his failure to use critical thinking and to not follow safe loading practices. I’d not waste my time on it.




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