.357 Loads in .38 casings

[TheLastGoodFight]

Good afternoon all,

I have an abundance of .38 casings and no real interest in .38 revolvers, so I've attempted a few experiments in putting .357 level loads in .38 casings with my Ruger OM BH.
I'd like to know who has attempted this, what dies you use, and what pressure differences I can expect out of the shorter casing. So far my attempts have been unsuccessful because my RCBS dies will not crimp a .38 casing in spite of the claim that they can. The casings are simply too short to reach the crimp groove no matter what adjustments I make.
Still, I would like to know who of you have done this successfully and what resulted. It would be a big help.

 

[Bayou]

I haven't done that, and wouldn't try it either. The pressures of a 357 charge dropped in a 38SPL case could lead to a catastrophic result...

 

[TheLastGoodFight]

Thanks for that bit of info. Would that be the case even if I were loading a bit down from what the manual says?

 

[Bayou]

I have no way of actually measuring pressures. That's why I stick to the charge limitations listed in the loading data manuals. I personally could not recommend anyone doing anything other than that.

Loading beyond the charge limits listed in the manuals means that you're simply assuming the risk of anything going wrong. Not what you want do. Could lead to a "bad day"... and it would be all your fault to boot...

Just my $0.02...

 

[USSR]

TheLastGoodFight,

You say ".38 casing". If you are using .38 Special cases, there is simply no reason why you shouldn't be able to crimp a .38 Special case using .38 Special/.357 Magnum dies if you have your seater die set up correctly. While the .357 Magnum got inspired by guys like Elmer Keith loading up .38 Special cases to near .357 Magnum levels, it is not a good idea to do so. Oh, the case can take it. It's just the chance that at some time in the future someone could fire it in a .38 Special revolver with disastrous results.

Don

 

[KW Gary M]

Looking at the pros and cons I wouldn't try loading 38 Special brass to 357 Mag specs even if you do shoot it out of a 357 Mag revolver. Why not just load them as 38 Specials and use them for range plinking out of your 357 Mag revolver?

Pros: It might work out fine.

Cons: It might blow up your gun, it might injure yourself or someone else, it might void any warranty you have on your gun.

 

[T. O'Heir]

I'd suspect that .357 loads just won't physically fit in a .38 case with the bullet in place. Depends on the powder of course, but a jacketed 158 .357 Max load is 6.9 grains of HP-38. Same bullet and powder in .38 Special is 4.3. The difference in pressure is 24,100 PSI too. Shot out of a .357 revolver it's not going to damage anything. Unless somebody thinks they're .38 Special and fires 'em out of a .38 Special revolver. Most likely a very ugly and instant KABOOOOOOM!!!!!
There is no difference other than the length in the actual cases, but I don't think you'll get 6.9 of HP-38 in a .38 Special case with the bullet in correctly.
In any case, it's a very bad thing to be playing with. If you don't want the .38 brass, you should sell it.

 

[TheLastGoodFight]

Thanks for saving me from a bad day. I appreciate all the info.

 

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.



The .357 Magnum was developed in large part by Elmer Keith, who loaded up .38 Special cases in heavy framed revolvers. He came up with loads that reached .357 pressures and then some, but because they could damage lighter .38 Special revolvers, when the time came to commercialize these loads, the longer .357 Mag case was created to prevent them being accidentally chambered in a .38 Special. The Magnum case is 0.135" longer, but the SAAMI COL for the .357 Magnum is only 0.040" longer. Bullets for the .357 were made with cannelures and crimp grooves are further forward on the bullet for this reason, as a .38 Special bullet might protrude from the cylinder of a magnum revolver if crimped into its lower (from the tip) cannelure or crimp groove.

Additionally, some manufacturers make their .357 Magnum brass thicker near their heads than their .38 Special brass is. I don't know if that is out of an overabundance of caution or if it is an illusion created because they started making .38 Special heads thinner in order to save brass and knew they could get away with it. Either way, when I look in QuickLOAD, I see only 2 grains of water overflow capacity difference in the two cases, even though the added length of the .357 should produce about 4 grains added water capacity. That lower difference is due to head region thickness.

Assuming that difference holds up for brands not tested by QuickLOAD's author, seating the same 158 grain JHP at the maximum COL in both cartridges with the same load gives essentially identical pressures. However, I would be checking that the case water overflow capacity of my .357 and .38 Special cases really were only 2 grains different¹, as they were for QuickLOAD's author. If so, I would keep in mind that the .38 Special heads are lighter, and keep an extra careful eye out for signs of case head expansion, incipient head separation and expansion of primer pockets.

If your .38 Special and .357 Magnum cases have 4 grains of difference in water capacity, run the .357 loads about 8% lighter in the Special cases to keep a matching pressure.


¹Measure this by weighing the case, filling it with water level at the mouth (no meniscus) and weighing it again. The difference in the two weights is the water overflow capacity of the case. With a higher pressure rifle cartridge, you always do this with the as-fired case. With lower pressure pistol and handgun cartridges, you do it with the case resized. The .357 Mag is right in the middle, but since the .38 calls for resized brass and you want to compare apples to apples, I would resize both first, in this instance.

 

[gwpercle]

I've been doing it for 50 years. It's not a new idea but you have to use the correct bullet. Lyman # 358156 , 155 grain SWC , this bullet has a gas check, a lube groove and two crimping grooves. For loading 38 special loads in 38 special brass or loading 357 mag. loads in 357 magnum cases you crimp in the top groove.
The lower groove is used when you want to load 357 mag. loads in....38 special cases !
Crimping in the lower groove gives you magnum case capacity in the special shell.
Works like a charm. Skeeter Skelton liked this design for this reason.
Lyman still makes this mould . I do not know if anyone sells the bullets already cast.
Any dies that work for cast bullets can be used. Lyman, RCBS and CH4D are the sets I have picked up over the years ....they all work .
When doing this use stay away from the top Maximum 357 Magnum loads... I use this bullet , 38 special cases , seat bullet in the lower groove , over 6.5 grains of Unique for about 1000 fps , hotter than a 38 special but not a screaming meanie !

Gary

 

[Hanshi]

Gwpercle is correct. However, I would confine these loads to midrange .357 velocities - say 1100 fps to 1200 fps. Don't want to accidentally chamber one in a .38spl revolver.

 

[joed]

The problem in loading super hot .38 Spl ammo is that some day you may buy a .38 Spl revolver and forget what load is in those cases.

It's been done but I wouldn't do it as I own .38 Spl revolvers. If I died I'd hate to see someone try that ammo in a Colt DS.

 

[higgite]

A .357 Magnum load in a case headstamped ".38 Special". What could go wrong?

 

[rodfac]

I've been doing it for 50 years. It's not a new idea but you have to use the correct bullet. Lyman # 358156 , 155 grain SWC , this bullet has a gas check, a lube groove and two crimping grooves. For loading 38 special loads in 38 special brass or loading 357 mag. loads in 357 magnum cases you crimp in the top groove.

Me too. It's a great bullet, the very best home cast design I've ever tried in both handgun and carbine. My Marlin will throw carefully cast, sized and culled bullets into tight 1-1/4" 5-shot clusters at 100 yds with a 2.5x scope mounted. It'll do the same with any of my handguns at 25 yds from a rest. It's a hellofa bullet.

BTW, loads in .357 or .38 Spl brass loaded in this manner chronograph within 25 fps of each other...same pressure!

Short of that design, I'd never load .357 level loads in magnum brass. Rod

 

[USSR]

I'd suspect that .357 loads just won't physically fit in a .38 case with the bullet in place.

TheLastGoodFight,

The reason you weren't able to reach the crimp groove of the bullet wasn't because you were putting the powder charge weight of a .357 Magnum load into a .38 Special case, was it?

Don

 

[44 AMP]

So far my attempts have been unsuccessful because my RCBS dies will not crimp a .38 casing in spite of the claim that they can. The casings are simply too short to reach the crimp groove no matter what adjustments I make.

Check your dies (seater). The usual practice is to sell .38/357 dies, BUT there have been sets of .357 (only) dies made. If you have a .357 seater, and not a .38/357 then you won't be able to crimp .38 cases. If its not clear, call RCBS and give them the numbers on the die, they should be able to tell you.

Lets be clear about something, there are .357 LEVEL loads you can put in .38 Special cases, and there are .357 LOADS you can put in .38 cases, and they are not the same thing.

In other words, you use less powder to get .357 pressure in a .38 case than you would in a .357 case. Using the full .357 powder charge WEIGHT, will generate HIGHER than .357 pressure in the smaller .38 Special case.

Will it be enough to blow up your gun?? A .357, probably not, but it won't be a good thing. Will it blow up a .38?? POSSIBLY, if it's a small, lightly built gun.

The real risk, and the reason its a BAD IDEA loading .38 cases with magnum level loads is simply the same reason the .357 case was made longer than the .38 case. Its not to contain the magnum pressure, its to keep the magnum loads OUT of .38 special revolvers that are not made to take them.

Now, YOU might be sure you'll never make that mistake, YOU might not even have a .38 revolver to risk it in, but can you be certain no one else will ever (including your heirs) get their hands on any of that ammo, and NOT know its isn't safe in a .38??

IT's a safety issue, and not an insignificant one. IF you do it, any accident/problem that resuts (ever) is your responsibility.

As has been mentioned, the .357 was developed in .38 cases, and there was a .38/44 cartridge, which was a heavy (almost .357mag) load in .38 Special cases, intended for use ONLY in large "44 frame" size revolvers. (don't confuse that .38/44 with the much later .38/44 Bain & Davis, which was a 44 case necked down to .38 caliber. They are totally different, other than the bullet size.)

DO NOT just drop a powder charge weight from a .357 load table into a .38 case and load a bullet on it. I'm pretty sure you won't be happy with the results.

 

[res45]

I have about three coffee cans of 38 special brass and only 357 revolvers to shoot them in. when I bought my first custom mold I specifically purchased an NOE clone of the Ray Thompson Lyman 358156 gas check mold so I could crimp in the lower groove and load the bullets long in 38 special cases.

I don't plan on loading any really hot loads but something in the range of 1100 fps. works just fine.

Bullet loaded in 38 special and 357 Mag. cases.

The bullet I'm using.

 

[Real Gun]

Buy 500 Starline .357 cases for $80...problem solved.

 

[gwpercle]

res45,
With the NOE mould and your alloy , how much do the NOE358156 clones weigh?
Those hollow points look wicked and a 4 cavity NOE is nice to cast with...makes lots of bullets. My single cavity Lyman HP is so slow I don't use it any longer.
Christmas present maybe !
Gary

 

[res45]

Gary, mine is only a 2 cavity which is all I could afford at the time I bought it several years ago. The mold is still listed on the website but I don't know if he has any of the HP versions in stock.

The alloy I'm using is 50/50 Lead / Wheelweights, powder coated a gas checked if needed the bullet weighs 159 gr. The mold is specified to cast bullets at 160 grs.

As to gas checks, I have found that the aluminum checks sold by Sage Outdoors designed for plain base bullets easily fit over the gas check shank of bullets that have been powder coated.