Today I began to deprime and clean some .357 cases I had recently fired. These had been reloaded by myself. The load was right out of the Hornady 4th edition (abridged); 158 gr. HP/XTP, 15 gr. H110, magnum primer (WSPM), R_P case, 1.280" OAL. Some components are different than the ones in the manual, but the load is the same. I thought this was a good load, but the primers I removed were flattened more than any I have ever seen before. From a side profile they resembled the case from a .22 rimfire (the rim part). According to the manual, I am right in the middle of the range of powder charge for this bullet (14.1 start-15.8 max). Their test gun was a S & W 27 w/ 8 3/8" barrel and the listed velocity for this load was around 1275 fps. My gun is a Ruger Security Six w/ 4" barrel, and I chronographed this load from it at 1512 fps average for 5 shots. My question is this-have I reached the HOT load status already for my gun, even though I am only in the middle of the range? Do the higher velocity and flattened primers mean STOP? The load didn't feel even as hot (recoil) as some factory loads I have fired, and I didn't experience any other signs of too much pressure, i.e.- blown primers, sticky extraction. One more thing, the primers I used were the brass colored Winchester WSPM in the blue box, and it seems I have read here that they may be softer than the older Win. and other primers? Could this be what is worrying me? Your advise, experience, and help are appreciated. Thanks.
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.357 Load Question
- Thread starter keano44
- Start date
Without seeing the cases for myself, all I can say is... Pay close attention to the signs of overpressure you are getting.
Something is different with the components you are using that is apparently increasing the pressure.
This is why you work up to full power loads, You stop increasing the charge when you get the signs of high pressure.
As far as the recoil goes, some powders burn differently than others, and if you are not getting a higher velocity to corespond with the oressure you won't feel it in the recoil. The velocity is what causes the felt recoil, not the chamber pressure.
Just my $.02,
Karl
Something is different with the components you are using that is apparently increasing the pressure.
This is why you work up to full power loads, You stop increasing the charge when you get the signs of high pressure.
As far as the recoil goes, some powders burn differently than others, and if you are not getting a higher velocity to corespond with the oressure you won't feel it in the recoil. The velocity is what causes the felt recoil, not the chamber pressure.
Just my $.02,
Karl
STOP
Take a good look at all involved componants.
Second source that loading data.
You gettin higher velocity with half the barrel length.
And mushroomed primers.
For my info....is H110 as sensitive to under loading giving spikey pressures as W296 ?
Sumpin seriously wrong.
Sam
Take a good look at all involved componants.
Second source that loading data.
You gettin higher velocity with half the barrel length.
And mushroomed primers.
For my info....is H110 as sensitive to under loading giving spikey pressures as W296 ?
Sumpin seriously wrong.
Sam
Johnny Guest
Moderator in Memoriam
Sure is a Puzzlement, Keano - - -
To just throw in a couple of additional sources - - -
Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, Fourth Edition, fifth printing, 1996, shows MAXIMUM 15.8 gr. H110, with Federal 200 primers, same revolver and bullets you mention. Their indicated velocity is 1350 fps.
The Hodgdon Basic Reloaders Manual 2000, the paper-covered 74-page one, shows their H110/158 XTP as 16.7 gr, for 1591 fps, in a ten inch barrel.
And just to add some more data--The Speer Reloading Manual Number 12, 3rd printing, January 1995--Max load of H110 with the 158 jacketed bullets--15.5 gr. for 1217 fps, in a 6" S&W.
All of this is just FYI. But no matter--I believe you've reached YOUR max, and a bit beyond, the way you describe appearance of your primers. Sure glad you were chronographing your loads.
I do believe I'd want to back off just a little bit, for the sake of your Security Six's longevity. It is a fine little gun, but no GP-100 or Model 27.
My own experience with H110 is very limited, but just for comparison - - - I use a load of 2400 powder with CCI Mag primers and 158 XTP-HP bullets which yields 1323 from my 4" Colt and 1457 in my brother's 6" Taurus. The cases and primers are just beginning to show high pressure signs, and I'm not willing to prematurely age my revolvers for the sake of perhaps an extra 30 to 50 fps. My load is a full grain below the max load shown in the Alliant Powder Reloaders' Guide, 2000 edition, but two grains BELOW max in the Speer manual.
We TRY to be scientific with this handloading stuff. But sometimes I think it's more an arcane art than a science.
Best,
Johnny
To just throw in a couple of additional sources - - -
Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, Fourth Edition, fifth printing, 1996, shows MAXIMUM 15.8 gr. H110, with Federal 200 primers, same revolver and bullets you mention. Their indicated velocity is 1350 fps.
The Hodgdon Basic Reloaders Manual 2000, the paper-covered 74-page one, shows their H110/158 XTP as 16.7 gr, for 1591 fps, in a ten inch barrel.
And just to add some more data--The Speer Reloading Manual Number 12, 3rd printing, January 1995--Max load of H110 with the 158 jacketed bullets--15.5 gr. for 1217 fps, in a 6" S&W.
All of this is just FYI. But no matter--I believe you've reached YOUR max, and a bit beyond, the way you describe appearance of your primers. Sure glad you were chronographing your loads.
I do believe I'd want to back off just a little bit, for the sake of your Security Six's longevity. It is a fine little gun, but no GP-100 or Model 27.
My own experience with H110 is very limited, but just for comparison - - - I use a load of 2400 powder with CCI Mag primers and 158 XTP-HP bullets which yields 1323 from my 4" Colt and 1457 in my brother's 6" Taurus. The cases and primers are just beginning to show high pressure signs, and I'm not willing to prematurely age my revolvers for the sake of perhaps an extra 30 to 50 fps. My load is a full grain below the max load shown in the Alliant Powder Reloaders' Guide, 2000 edition, but two grains BELOW max in the Speer manual.
We TRY to be scientific with this handloading stuff. But sometimes I think it's more an arcane art than a science.
Best,
Johnny
"Second source that loading data."
Thanks Sam, I have just done that, and I see that Hodgdon Data Manual No. 26 and Modern Reloading by Richard Lee each list 14.5 gr. as the max for H110 with 158 gr. JSP bullet.
Next, I referred to my Loadbooks One Book/One Caliber book containing unabridged information from US bullet and powder makers - Examples of loads using magnum primers, 158 gr. JHP bullets and H110 powder:
Nosler 158 gr. JHP, 14.9 start-15.9 max
Sierra 158 gr. JHC, 13.3 start-16.3 max
Speer 158 gr. JHP, 13.9 start-15.5 max
Hodgdon 158 gr. HDY XTP, 15 start-16.7 max, w/WSPM primer! (this is exactly the load that I used, only with R-P rather than Win. cases)
The numbers differ quite a bit, and I'm puzzled as to why I'm getting the high pressure signs, but I'll back off and try working up again.
Also, I notice that I made a mistake in my original post: the OAL should have read 1.580", not 1.280" which is the case length.
Thanks Sam, I have just done that, and I see that Hodgdon Data Manual No. 26 and Modern Reloading by Richard Lee each list 14.5 gr. as the max for H110 with 158 gr. JSP bullet.
Next, I referred to my Loadbooks One Book/One Caliber book containing unabridged information from US bullet and powder makers - Examples of loads using magnum primers, 158 gr. JHP bullets and H110 powder:
Nosler 158 gr. JHP, 14.9 start-15.9 max
Sierra 158 gr. JHC, 13.3 start-16.3 max
Speer 158 gr. JHP, 13.9 start-15.5 max
Hodgdon 158 gr. HDY XTP, 15 start-16.7 max, w/WSPM primer! (this is exactly the load that I used, only with R-P rather than Win. cases)
The numbers differ quite a bit, and I'm puzzled as to why I'm getting the high pressure signs, but I'll back off and try working up again.
Also, I notice that I made a mistake in my original post: the OAL should have read 1.580", not 1.280" which is the case length.
Bill Adair
New member
keano44,
Some powders are more sensitive to heat, and can burn much faster at elevated temperatures.
I see that you live in a warmer climate, so could those cartridges have warmed up by sitting in the sun, or a closed car before being fired?
Bill
Some powders are more sensitive to heat, and can burn much faster at elevated temperatures.
I see that you live in a warmer climate, so could those cartridges have warmed up by sitting in the sun, or a closed car before being fired?
Bill
SOME THOUGHTS ON 357 MAG LOADS
First, suggest trying different brand CASE (Starline).
Second, switch primers (CCI).
If you still get squashed primers, THEN start backing down your H110 (increments of .2g) until you feel more comfortable with the "pressure signs" you're observing.
CONFIRM CHARGE WEIGHT BEFORE LOADING; perhaps a Scale Weight Check set.................
Maybe you just have a 'fast' gun.
Safety first; be careful; check and recheck.
First, suggest trying different brand CASE (Starline).
Second, switch primers (CCI).
If you still get squashed primers, THEN start backing down your H110 (increments of .2g) until you feel more comfortable with the "pressure signs" you're observing.
CONFIRM CHARGE WEIGHT BEFORE LOADING; perhaps a Scale Weight Check set.................
Maybe you just have a 'fast' gun.
Safety first; be careful; check and recheck.
WESHOOT2
I understand completely your suggestions that I try different cases or primers; what I'm curious about is that you name specific brands.
Please explain:
Why Starline cases instead of R-P?
Why CCI primers instead of WSPM?
Thanks
Bill Adair
You are correct about the climate here, and yes these cartridges have spent time under the seat of my truck, where summertime temps probably get to 130F.
I understand completely your suggestions that I try different cases or primers; what I'm curious about is that you name specific brands.
Please explain:
Why Starline cases instead of R-P?
Why CCI primers instead of WSPM?
Thanks
Bill Adair
You are correct about the climate here, and yes these cartridges have spent time under the seat of my truck, where summertime temps probably get to 130F.
Johnny Guest
Moderator in Memoriam
I'm also interested in why WESHOOT2 makes those suggestions. - - -
No disagreeing, mind you--Just curious.
You write:
"Please explain:
Why Starline cases instead of R-P?
Why CCI primers instead of WSPM? "
Just as a mental exercise, I make the following observations--
Starline cases have a good reputation for durability. I use them in several calibers in preference to other brands. I recall that, especially in .45 ACP, Remington-Peters cases are reputed to be thinner than some other brands.
I have not done any personal experimentation but WSPM primers are reputed to be somewhat thinner/softer than CCI Mag primers, and consequently more apt to flow easier than the CCI.
How about it, WESHOOT2?
It IS a fact that different guns have differing chamber and barrel measurements. Testing identical loads--matched brass, same bullets, same day, - - -
1. My S&W M37 shoots 'em slightly faster than my Colt Agent.
2. My S&W M19 shows higher velocities than my Colt .357.
(This last is puzzling, because the Colt chamber SEEMS just a touch tighter than the S&W. Must be a bore thing.)
Best,
Johnny
No disagreeing, mind you--Just curious.
You write:
"Please explain:
Why Starline cases instead of R-P?
Why CCI primers instead of WSPM? "
Just as a mental exercise, I make the following observations--
Starline cases have a good reputation for durability. I use them in several calibers in preference to other brands. I recall that, especially in .45 ACP, Remington-Peters cases are reputed to be thinner than some other brands.
I have not done any personal experimentation but WSPM primers are reputed to be somewhat thinner/softer than CCI Mag primers, and consequently more apt to flow easier than the CCI.
How about it, WESHOOT2?
It IS a fact that different guns have differing chamber and barrel measurements. Testing identical loads--matched brass, same bullets, same day, - - -
1. My S&W M37 shoots 'em slightly faster than my Colt Agent.
2. My S&W M19 shows higher velocities than my Colt .357.
(This last is puzzling, because the Colt chamber SEEMS just a touch tighter than the S&W. Must be a bore thing.)
Best,
Johnny
IME, the Remington cases have a much larger radius leading from the case head to the walls of the primer pocket. That leaves the extreme back edge of the primer cup essentially "unsupported" and able to mushroom out like that.
My almost-scientific test is to compare loads with the same case and primer in factory max loads (not Rem Golden Sabers--they're downloaded!), with reloads using the same case/primer combo. Those are the only "pressure signs" I consider reliable.
Some educated writings indicate that you can exceed .357 Mag pressures before you reach even a hint of sticky extraction. Take that FWIW.
You could tear down some Remington factory .357s and re-prime them with Winchesters, resizing the case along the way. Replace the powder and re-seat & duplicate as far as possible the factory crimp. THEN you could have a "close" approximation of how your current primers would look with a max load. IF the Win primers shoot faster than the Remingtons, and that's by 50 fps or less, chances are the pressure difference is not enough to worry about.
HTH.
My almost-scientific test is to compare loads with the same case and primer in factory max loads (not Rem Golden Sabers--they're downloaded!), with reloads using the same case/primer combo. Those are the only "pressure signs" I consider reliable.
Some educated writings indicate that you can exceed .357 Mag pressures before you reach even a hint of sticky extraction. Take that FWIW.
You could tear down some Remington factory .357s and re-prime them with Winchesters, resizing the case along the way. Replace the powder and re-seat & duplicate as far as possible the factory crimp. THEN you could have a "close" approximation of how your current primers would look with a max load. IF the Win primers shoot faster than the Remingtons, and that's by 50 fps or less, chances are the pressure difference is not enough to worry about.
HTH.
Johnny.....could easy be that your Colt has a considerably smaller bore than your 19.
I have slugged a couple hundred .357s and the spread was from .3535 to .359......with the Colts toward the tight end and the Smiths more toward the loose end. A few strays of both brands went the other way.
Loose chamber ? I have a 6" 19-3 that happily eats .38 S&W....that's loose. A tackdriver tho.
Sam
I have slugged a couple hundred .357s and the spread was from .3535 to .359......with the Colts toward the tight end and the Smiths more toward the loose end. A few strays of both brands went the other way.
Loose chamber ? I have a 6" 19-3 that happily eats .38 S&W....that's loose. A tackdriver tho.
Sam
OPINION vs EXPERIENCE vs "JUST BECAUSE"
I suggested Starline cases for their durability and different dimensions, both internal and external.
I suggested CCI primers for their slightly 'harder' material and their consistency.
I made these suggestions just to see if component changes will make any difference.
Besides, we both have to start somewhere............
I suggested Starline cases for their durability and different dimensions, both internal and external.
I suggested CCI primers for their slightly 'harder' material and their consistency.
I made these suggestions just to see if component changes will make any difference.
Besides, we both have to start somewhere............
OK, I'm no expert and a relative newcomer to H110 (for .44 Mag). Some observations:
The last reloading manual I downloaded from the Hodgdon website (basc2000.pdf) states that "H110 loads should not be reduced more than 3%". Their max .357M load for a 158 Gr HDY XTP is 16.7 grains H110, with a Win SPM primer for 1591 fps. Starting load would then be 16.2 - not a very large swing.
Hodgdon explains that further reducing charges can lead to inconsistent ignition, while others seem to mumble about dangerous pressures.
I have seen other H110 examples where the start and max load are the same, and a variation is not recommended.
FWIW, get the latest off the Hodgdon site and see what the subject matter expert (the powder manufacturer) recommends. The Hodgdon folk have been responsive to technical inquiries.
I've also heard the rumor that Winchester primers are softer than the CCI's I use, and have considered experimenting.
The last reloading manual I downloaded from the Hodgdon website (basc2000.pdf) states that "H110 loads should not be reduced more than 3%". Their max .357M load for a 158 Gr HDY XTP is 16.7 grains H110, with a Win SPM primer for 1591 fps. Starting load would then be 16.2 - not a very large swing.
Hodgdon explains that further reducing charges can lead to inconsistent ignition, while others seem to mumble about dangerous pressures.
I have seen other H110 examples where the start and max load are the same, and a variation is not recommended.
FWIW, get the latest off the Hodgdon site and see what the subject matter expert (the powder manufacturer) recommends. The Hodgdon folk have been responsive to technical inquiries.
I've also heard the rumor that Winchester primers are softer than the CCI's I use, and have considered experimenting.