32 Winchester Special vs 30-30 Winchester

[Pathfinder45]

Which is the better cast-bullet shooter; 32 Winchester Special or 30-30 Winchester, and why? This assumes a dedicated handloader that is immune to the price difference of factory ammo and has plenty of components, etc.

 

[Lucas McCain]

The twist rate on the 32 special is 1-16. It was designed that way for those who wanted to reload with cast bullets and black powder. Also they felt it would recoil less The bad part of this is that when there gets to be some very moderate wear in the barrel the accuracy gets very bad. The 30-30 has a 1-12 twist, faster twist stabilizes the bullet better.
So if you have a good barrel, your OK.
I have both calibers. The 30WCF (30-30) is a prewar gun and the 32 Special is a pre-64 gun. Both guns are in excellent condition and they haven't fired all that many rounds. These gun have been in the family since they were NIB. But I will say that the 30-30 is a much more accurate rifle than the 32 Special. Both shooting 170 grain silver tips. If I was going to shoot cast bullets in some type of competion, I would definitely use the 30-30.

 

[Old Stony]

I experimented with casting a lot many years ago, and loaded both calibers with lead. While shooting both out of Winchesters, they both shot jacketed bullets about equally as far as accuracy, but the .32 always outshot the 30/30 with cast bullets. I really don't know if the twist made the difference or what, but that was just my experience.

 

[MJFlores]

I dont own a 30-30 but I do have a pre-64 model 94 in .32 Winchester special. It's an extremely accurate lever gun. I've heard rumors of accuracy issues from way back. Apparently there was a lot of Win ammo manufactured with .319 bullets...which would shoot horribly as the bore is .321. These days you'd be hard pressed to find any noticeable difference between the 30-30 and .32 as far as accuracy. That rumor regarding accuracy concerns is probablt what helped the 30-30 win popularity over the 32, which is a shame as the 32 is really a fantastic cartridge...one of my favorites.

 

[kraigwy]

I'd like to have a 32, mainly cause I don't have one. I do have a 30-30, A 1926 made Model 94 Saddle Ring Carbine. I also have a TC pistol barrel in 30-30.

I haven't had any problems using cast bullets in either. I do size them to .311 thought.

Still I think having both would be the best option.

 

[Jim Watson]

The bad part of this is that when there gets to be some very moderate wear in the barrel the accuracy gets very bad.

I think that is right out of the Speer manual.
But really, how much wear are you going to put on your lever action? With cool burning modern powder and noncorrosive primers, it is not going to wear very fast anyhow.

The .32 WS is pretty much a .30-30 chamber behind a .32-40 barrel. The .32-40 was, in single shots, a leading target caliber in the late BPCR-early nitro days.

I recall a gunzine article where the author tested the concept of "smokeless factory load, black reload" for .32 WS. Smokeless powder shot about like you would expect from a lever action. Fresh new black powder was a mess. Fouling was heavy, velocity was low, and accuracy fair to poor.
Then he turned up some very old DuPont black. An antique dealer had gotten it and only wanted the can to sell for decoration.
Things improved in all respects. Velocity was about 100 fps higher, groups about half the size, and fouling about as light as you can reasonably expect with black.

 

[T. O'Heir]

Neither is better. They're just different. Biggest difference is that you can get .30-30 brass easily. .32 Special you have to make. There is factory ammo though. Just not from Winchester.
Probably far easier to find suitable .308" cast bullets too. Only 1 weight in .32 from Montana Bullets. Not a lot of .32 cast bullet load data, on-line, either.
None of all that is insurmountable since you can get ammo and forming the .32 is done by FL resizing a .30 in a .32 Special die.
"...helped the 30-30 Win popularity over the 32..." The 9 or so fewer years of there being a .32 notwithstanding. And that the .32 really doesn't do anything the .30 would not.

 

[Pathfinder45]

Does anyone have the bore and groove dimensions for the 32 Winchester Special? I heard that's a reason why it's a good cast-bullet shooter.

 

[Jim Watson]

SAAMI thinks it is .315"/.320" +.002"/-0 16" twist.
Same as .32-40.

Ken Waters (Passed away last month age 99.) said his .32 WS was .3207" and recommended cast bullets .001-.002" over.

He didn't specify his .32-40 but said he shot cast bullets .322-.323" which is about the same thing. But not to use WW .322" jacketed bullets in old mild steel barrels.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

My Range time is sent mostly shooting my Winchesters 94s. All are Pre 64 models. Being a Home Reloader shooting jacketed out of both the 30 WCF and Special both are quite similar in grouping accuracy at 100 Yrd.

When it comes to shooting home cast. I want my cast to fly at Jacketed speeds or faster than. Such speeds from G/C lead are likely not to be as accurate and barrel leading is a real possibility.
So to achieve those jacketed speeds with non G/C cast I've been Paper Patching my 30 WCF for a couple years. {A technique that many shooters are not aware of.} I figure if I'm going to see pleasing to the eye P/P cast accuracy? Its likely to be seen from the 30 WCF due to its faster barrel twist and its ability to stabilize heavier bullet weights at those faster jacketed speeds.

 

[Wheels Up]

Hi All. This is my first post on this forum. I have both the 30/30 and the 32 Special (and a Marlin 1893 in 32/40). As far as shooting cast bullets goes the 32 has a distinct advantage over the 30/30. After all, it was created with the idea of reloading with black powder and cast bullets in mind. As others have pointed out, the 32 Special shares a bore diameter and slower rate of twist (less likely to "strip", foul and slightly lower pressures) with the 32/40 which was known to be an extremely accurate cast bullet cartridge. On a side note, while I don't think there is any difference in performance on game between the two cartridges, I do prefer the often maligned 32. I think it is a little more unique, has a little more charisma. I have a pre-war 94 in 32 and I'm glad its in 32 Special instead of 30/30.

It may be silly, romantic nostalgia but I occasionally try to think back to what it must have been like around the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century when the 32 Special first came out. Transportation was by horse or rail and the North American continent was very rural and wild. If you didn't live near the rail line or a trading post supplies (ammo) could be days or even weeks away. It made a lot of sense to choose the 32 Special where you could enjoy all of the performance of the 30/30 with it's smokeless powder and if your supply of factory 32 Special ammo ran out you could reload with black powder and cast bullets, duplicating the 32/40, to keep food on the table until you made it back to town. It seems to me that this would have been a very attractive option for some one living way out in the wilderness back then and a good reason for them to choose the 32 over the 30/30. Please forgive my wandering off topic.... Please don't hold it against me, being the "new guy" and all...

 

[Pathfinder45]

Welcome to The Firing Line, Wheels Up. This is exactly what I was asking about. I wanted to hear from folks that have experience with the two cartridges and especially from those that own and shoot both, particularly in the realm of cast bullets. I read in a post sometime back where someone said that both cartridges share the same bore diameter, but the 32 Special has deeper grooves providing a better grip on cast bullets: However, I don't know if this is even true.

 

[CoastRange]

The points made about difficulty finding bullets and cases for the .32 WS are weak. During the past few months, I've purchased Hornady cases from Cabelas and/or Sportsman's Warehouse (can't remember which--could be both!). A dandy, accurate shooting bullet can be delivered to your door. Daniel at The Bull Shop in Dell, Montana makes a superb gas-checked bullet. Orders are filled quickly.

 

[MJFlores]

I agree, the .32 is still alive and well and it's quite easy to find loaded ammo as well as brass and bullets. Around here you're unlikely to find 32 at Walmart, but every gun shop has it in Hornady and Federal. During deer season I see it by Winchester and Remington as well. You can make brass from 30-30 as people have mention here but honestly, I just buy factory ammo and then load that brass. Bullets are easily found from Hornady and Speer. One of the better powders for it is 3031 which is easy to find, but it's a very forgiving cartridge and many powders will give good performance. I really like the .32 Win Sp cartridge and would love to see manufacturers like Winchester and Henry offer it again. I remember seeing an old Winchester ad somewhere on the net, about the 32 and it was suggesting "a larger bore for a more dramatic effect on game". Winchester was definitely trying to use that angle in ads found in hunting magazines, etc. I should try to dig up that ad. I dont know if I could tell the difference between the 32 and 30-30 on impact, but the 32 does seem to pack a "special" kind of wallop when it hits something....enough to make you say "wow".

 

[dahermit]

I read in a post sometime back where someone said that both cartridges share the same bore diameter, but the 32 Special has deeper grooves providing a better grip on cast bullets: However, I don't know if this is even true.

Not true. The SAMMI specification for the .32 Winchester Special is .320-.321 whereas the specification for .30-30 Winchester is .308-.309 I believe. Having owned both in Winchester '94's and shot cast lead bullets in both, there was no apparent difference between the two and for the most part, have been considered to be ballistic twins. I always prefered the .32 Win. Spl., not because it was somehow, "better", but because it is less common than the .30-30 and I like the more unusual as opposed to the more common...the same way I prefer the .38 Super over the 9MM.

 

[CoastRange]

Pretty odd how a hundred years of misinformation regarding the .32WS and the .30 WCF continues to be spewed from gunshop, to campfire, to the internet. Seems a fellow needs a good pair of chest-waders just to escape the slop.

A positive note about the "worthless" reputation of the .32 WS: those of us who know the caliber's finer points have many to choose from to bring home.

 

[Pathfinder45]

OK, it seems some of us are confusing BORE diameter with GROOVE diameter. I know darn well that the 30-30 is .308 in in both bullet and groove diameter and that its bore is supposed to be right about .300 in diameter. I also know that the 32 Winchester Special takes .321 bullets and its groove diameter is the same. But what I'm uncertain of is its BORE diameter which will certainly be less than .321. If the rumor of the two cartridges having the same bore diameter is true, (which I kind of doubt, but would like to know), then the 32 WS would have substantially deeper grooves. Regardless of the actual numbers, if it does indeed have deeper grooves, would this tend to make it a better cast-bullet shooter, as the rumor indicated? For me, the 32WS needs to do something better than the 30-30 to justify buying one. I don't see that happening unless it is substantially more accurate with cast bullets. I'm thinking maybe it is. And then there is the possibility that Winchester and Marlin may have used slightly different dimensions.... but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

 

[Tinbucket]

32 winchester special vs .30-30 winchester

I had a pre 64 94 mad in 51 I think until some stole it in 76.
I now have a pre 64 made in 49, in 32 special.
If the gun is made after 48 or maybe fifty it has better steel.
Someone correct me on this.
The problem of wearing out .32 special barrels was because dirty black powder loads accelerated wear and the bullets lost accuracy as the lands became more faint. That's one account.
I've shot very few rounds through this gun and it shoots to point of aim, unfortunately that is to the left.
New rear sight as soon as I can locate a good one. I can see the bend.
As to brass, I simply loaded my old fired .30-30 brass with .321 bullets after depriming cleaning and priming. No resizing required the first time. May have to depedning on your chamber.
I loaded a bit warmer but not much. Improved accuracy a bit beside the sight being off.
No finer gun for carry except I hate the blue wearing, from carrying, near balance point, behind forearm, right on front portion of action.

 

[Pathfinder45]

I believe the switch from nickel-steel barrels to the later barrels was quite a bit earlier, though I'm not sure when. My, "War-time", model 94, has the blueing completely worn away from the receiver, leaving a dark silvery, stained patina on it, that to my eye, looks more attractive than a new-in-box, clean blue rifle. There are still the occasional pre-64's that show up on auction sites that are very nearly like brand new and they look good, but less interesting than a rifle with some history worn into it. Plus, the price tag leaves it out of the question entirely.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"The bad part of this is that when there gets to be some very moderate wear in the barrel the accuracy gets very bad."

Sort of true.

In my experience accuracy degrades quickly if you're trying to shoot cast bullets with blackpowder out of a worn bore.

If your bore is worn, there's generally little to no effect on accuracy with jacketed bullets and smokeless powder.