308 Winchester with Heavy Blackout bullets

[Recycled bullet]

I am loading a 208 grain

powder coated gas checked cast hollow point in 308 Winchester.

The gun I'm shooting them in is a Remington model 7.

The gunstock is checkered and the texture feels good in my hands. The barrel and receiver have an matte utilitarian type of blueing and the bolt is partially jeweled with patterns.

I like that the rifle is light weight with a thin profile barrel. The gun stock length of pull is short and the thickness of the stock is small. I can wrap my hands around it easily. I like the rifle.

I have installed a two MOA Green Dot reticle tube style electronic gun sight in the front receiver ring.

I shot it at a nine inch white paper plate standing up off hand unsupported at 50 yards.

Shooting relatively quickly without too much preparation, I was getting about a 1-in group. This is a pleasant surprise because how much of the target the dot covers, and my continuing difficulty with standing still and not moving the gun off target while I'm trying to aim and fire the gun at the target [emoji1787].

I will start increasing the powder charge slowly and see if the group's trend toward tightening up. I will stop when accuracy degrades.

I am currently at 25 grains of IMR 3031 and about a 2.75 overall length it just barely fits in the hinged floor plate magazine.

I have an interesting idea of mounting a 3X magnifier on the rear receiver ring on a tilt away mount like how you would have on an AR-15.


To my disappointment it does not feed very well at this length

through the 7.62 AICS magazines that the Ruger Predator takes [emoji1787]

That is a separate storyline that I'm going to start writing in the future [emoji16].

 

[Recycled bullet]

I just realized that the previous picture was taken before I replaced the front scope mount with a lower profile design.

This shows exactly how it is set up now

 

[akinswi]

Hows the recoil?

 

[Recycled bullet]

The recoil impulse sensation is ok when I shot standing up. I might shoot it more on Sunday afternoon then I'll have more to say. I want to shoot it off bags and more precisely sight it in.
I am researching some higher quality gun sights also.


Last range trip I did have opportunity to shoot some other handloads, some 155 grain plain base flat nose no lube groove powder coated cast bullets. I charged some with 10 grains of Winchester Autocomp they're pretty accurate. The power level felt about like 44 mag in a rifle. It is accurate too, basically puts bullets in the same hole at 25 yards. Then I tried some with 4 grains trail boss (surprising still stable and not key holing) (super quiet and most definitely subsonic) and some others with 10 grains of trail boss powder, they each felt like the centerfire version of a 22LR equivalent...


I gotta make more empty brass so I can re-load it [emoji16]

This is one gun sight that piques my interest.

 

[44 AMP]

I am currently at 25 grains of IMR 3031 and about a 2.75 overall length it just barely fits in the hinged floor plate magazine.

2.800" is the industry standard max loaded length. Rem Model 7s are not noted for having "extra" room.

Any idea the velocity? With that powder charge I'd guess its around 1800fps or so.

 

[jmr40]

I have most of a box of 200 gr Hornady ELDX bullets left over from when I had a 300 WSM. That was a good bullet for 300 WSM. I experimented with a few in my 308 but didn't really follow through. I don't recall the specifics of my load, but velocity should have been 2350-2400 fps. Not a lot of published data for bullets over 180 gr in 308.

I was getting 2600 fps with 178 gr ELDX's and when I looked at the numbers, I wasn't gaining anything with bullets over about 180 gr in 308. I should be able to get 2550-2600 with them in a 30-06 and that should be enough speed to offer an advantage in 30-06 over 180 gr bullets.

But compared to 300BO I can see where you're gaining something in a 308. I don't think you'd ever get those to feed in a short action 700. The model 7 action has a bit larger loading/ejection port even though the overall action length is a little shorter.

 

[44 AMP]

Any .308 loaded to 2.800" or less should fit and feed in a Rem .308 Win.

It may not fit or feed WELL, but it should fit, and feed.

The bullets shown are very long and not very tapered, and seated very close to max length. That is likely the cause of your feeding issues.

The powder charge given (25gr IMR 3031) is very LIGHT. Even for a cast bullet it's on the light end. I see no indication of a crimp (or crimp groove) so why not seat those slugs a little deeper (say .1"??) and see if your feeding improves??

 

[Jim Watson]

If I'm getting an inch at 50 yards offhand, I am not changing anything.

 

[akinswi]

Exactly

 

[Recycled bullet]

I may not have been entirely clear? I apologize if I have misled anyone with poor communication. I am experimenting with multiple (4) separate rifles and making ammunition to feed them at the same time.

Primarily my focus is this heavy bullet in the Remington rifle.

I am enjoying designing an experiment and testing what happens when I change variables and what will cause different changes in results. AKA tinkering with guns and ammo and casting bullets and gunpowder.

Secondarily I will try to make this into an ammunition that is compatible with all my other rifles that are chambered 308 Winchester.

If I can pull both of those off?? Coffee[emoji477]

In the earlier post I was focusing on the Remington and made mention of the Ruger choking on this ammo.


1) The bullets feed very well in the Remington model 7. This is a hinged floor plate bolt action rifle. I really like to shoot the Remington model 7 so this is a match that works for me.

2) The bullets sometimes fail to correctly feed in the Ruger American Hunter with the AICS magazines. I've only attempted this combination twice I need further testing. This is a detachable box magazine bolt action rifle, I've been collecting five and 10 round plastic magazines for it. That gun feeds perfectly with PMC ball ammo so I think the difference in bullet ogive and overall length, is what is making the difference. In this instance I hypothesize it is absolutely correct that making adjustments for overall length could correct any feeding problem.

3) At some point I'm going to have to test them in the Browning BLR. Browning BLR is a detachable box magazine lever action rifle, I have one metal magazine. I expect this one will feed well. The Browning has no problem at all feeding the Lee 170 grain flat nose bullets so maybe these will fit fire and extract and leave accuracy on the target.

4) The length of the heavy bullet makes fail to feed for the Ruger American Ranch 300 Blackout, which is originally the gun that I purchased the heavy mold to cast and shoot for. I think it cartridge overall length because the noses are getting smashed up and jammed up!!![emoji2959]

I will make dummy cartridges with no primer no powder and figure out where overall length needs to be for good feeding, then redo the load work up. 300 Blackout has relatively small powder capacity and I don't want to create an overpressure situation right in front of my face.

At 2.2 inches overall length I am loading 10 grains of IMR 4227 underneath the heavy hollow point bullets and getting bottle cap sized group benched.

It feeds correctly if I point the gun upwards at a 45°angle while cycling the bolt. I have not decided if this is some problem with the stock or magazine well conversion from the factory to take the AR magazines and needs to go back to Ruger for example mis- alignment of the magazine to the barrel feed ramp or if the overall length of the loaded cartridges is exceeding some design parameter. Max is 2.26". I don't know for sure just yet.

I have already troubleshooted and confirmed a fix on an interesting chambering problem. The mixed head stamp 300BLK brass neck thickness in combination with the cast bullets diameter was causing hard to close hard to open bolt. I corrected this problem by using matching RP 300 Blackout brass and sizing the bullets 309, coating them with HITEk which is a very thin epoxy-based stain as opposed to powder coating which is a thermoset polyester powder paint and is thicker.


This is another regular bolt action rifle except what sets it apart is it is designed to use standard AR-15 magazines. I am using 20 and 30 round Magpul 300 Blackout specific magazines and I have been collecting these as well.

There's another bullet mold I have that makes 155 grain plain base that feeds better in the AR-15 magazines and my focus primarily is subsonics in this fast twist rifle so I'm going to continue in that direction with the lighter weight bullets.

I'm thinking also about trying some bullets designed for 32 caliber revolvers and seeing how they do in 308 Winchester...[emoji1787][emoji16]

Thank you for your responses and sharing your thoughts.

I'm always open to learning and hearing new ideas.

 

[Recycled bullet]

If I'm getting an inch at 50 yards offhand, I am not changing anything.

Thank you that makes me feel good to hear that!

 

[Paul B.]

JMR40 said, "Not a lot of published data for bullets over 180 gr in 308."

I have an older One Book/One Caliber manual for the .308 Win. Current versions DO NOT have data for 220 gr. bullets and I don't remember if they had anything for 200 gr. bullets as well. I did use one load for the 220 gr. Sierra round nose bullet using W760 which gave 2310 FPS on average and the load was accurate in a Winchester m70 with 22" barrel Bullet was seated to the cannelure. Brass was Winchester and I used the standard WLR primer.

W760
Start: 42.0 gr./2244 FPS/42,000 C.U.P.
Max: 44.0 gr./2295 FPS/46,900 C.U.P.

Paul B.

 

[Unclenick]

Just be aware that the lower start pressure of the softer coated bullet may make it hard for 760 to get burning well.

Shooting relatively quickly without too much preparation, I was getting about a 1-in group. This is a pleasant surprise because how much of the target the dot covers, and my continuing difficulty with standing still and not moving the gun off target while I'm trying to aim and fire the gun at the target.

The human eye is remarkably good at centering things. The first time you look through a ghost ring sight, you think it might almost be useless with such a big open area around the front sight post, but in practice, it shoots better than a lot of folks do in the field with scopes.

As far as standing still goes, it won't ever happen completely. Our nerve endings keep twitching muscles here and there, especially if we hold too long and burn up too much of the oxygen from our held breath before the shot gets off. Part of the trick of trigger control is letting go of the desire to wait until everything stops moving and just have faith in it and continue to press the trigger. Over time, if you are careful to keep your eyes open so you can see how the sight is aimed when the shot breaks, you will find your subconscious tends to favor releasing shots in the same part of your movement range each time. It isn't always at a perfect-looking alignment, but when it is consistent, the groups are small, and you can repeat.

All that said, there are some hold positions that let your body resist the wind best, and that tend to be how you can arrange yourself such that you aren't holding things up with muscle as much as with bones braced by leaning on one another. Because we are all built a little differently, this turns out to differ, sometimes substantially, between individuals, and you just have to experiment. Usually, even though we can't hold perfectly still, it is the position in which you naturally have the least movement that is also the bone-built hold. So feedback from the sights tells you when you've found it.

With those big soft (as compared to gilding metal jackets) bullets, I think your experiments with quicker powders are smart. If you see a sudden widening of groups, you may have gone over the bullet's pressure tolerance. As the late Richard Lee demonstrated, if your peak pressures exceed the yield of the bullet metal, groups open up. If you multiply the BHN by 1400, you have the pressure at which that starts to happen. Lee used 1280 times BHN to make room for shot-to-shot pressure variation.

 

[HiBC]

That might be a great bullet for a 30-40Krag.

 

[44 AMP]

That might be a great bullet for a 30-40Krag.

Probably would be, sized for particular Krag's barrel. One of my old books shows a starting load of 33gr IMR 3031 with a 200gr jacketed just under 1900fps from a 22" Krag, and a 213gr cast w/gas check getting pushed up to 1700fps with faster powders (4227 and 4198).

A lead hp bullet and less than full jacketed bullet speeds reduces one of the Krag's famed attributes, its tremendous penetration, but would be an excellent choice (within its easy trajectory range) for things (like deer) where that level of penetration isn't needed.

The trick would be matching the cast size to the rifle bore. The last "new" Krags were a LONG time ago, and not all the ones you find today have precise .308" bores. Not a big matter, there's always some size for the best bore fit, one just has to check to see what that is.

 

[HiBC]

Probably would be, sized for particular Krag's barrel.

I agree. Basic to cast bullet success is fitting the bullet to the bore.

It sounds like I have a similar "sportered" Krag to yours. I have not explored the project yet,but some time back I read an article suggesting the 30-40 as an ideal cast bullet cartridge.

I'd better check myself before I hijack this thread!

 

[Recycled bullet]

Please speak freely I want to hear what you have to say.

 

[HiBC]

OK. Lets start with the idea that groove dia for a nominal 308 bore MIGHT be .308. Or so.
And suppose my 100 year old barrel MIGHT have worn .002. I know, slug and measure!

Lets assume the bullet must be no smaller than groove dia. Oversize .001 or .002 is OK.

Suppose most Lyman etc 30 cal molds will (maybe) lean toward dropping a .309 Wheelweight bullet.

And suppose my rifle needs a .310+ bullet to gas seal.

I've never powder coated bullets. I assume the powder coat will upsize the bullet some. Will powder coating make a ,309 as cast bullet seal in a .310 barrel? One way to find out I guess, but the experience of others might save me from re-inventing the wheel.

If I need a bit more,molds designed for .303 British ,etc will drop bullets .310 to .312? I have not used these molds yet. 303 Brit and 30-40 have many similaities.

The author of the article noted accuracy fell off about 1900 fps with the bullets he tried.

Given the Krag has a single locking lug, was made old school of 100 year plus old steel , 1900 fps with a 200 gr cast bullet is "low intensity" enough to seem "prudent".

Pushing toward 2200 to 2400 fps with jacketed bullets ......might be possible... Max loads in the manuals say so..But. Why?..I have other 30 cal rifles. Starting with a Rem 81 300 savage,and 308,30-06,to 30x338.

I don't need for the Krag to fill the Thunder-Humper role, Its a light,trim 100 to 200 yd iron sighted gun that can fling wheel weights. Cheap!

I've gotten away from clicking links.

If you copy this and search, it will take you to a PDF collection of cast bullet articles by Mr Frixel . Among them is the 30-40 Krag article.

The Cast Bullet Articles Of Glen E. Fryxell - lasc.us

 

[44 AMP]

A 22" Krag is the GI carbine model, or its the rifle somebody cut shorter.

I've had a few Krag rifles over the years. They're special,,

Now just to throw a monkey wrench into the chat, my current sporterized Krag is 6.5x55mm Swede. Any my last .30-40 was a Ruger No.3

Somewhere I have old data tested in a US Krag rifle which had a .309" bore, and its very common for the bores of old rifle to vary from the published specs.

The .30-40 is a great cartridge, it has killed everything that walks in North America (including record book grizzly bear) and some stuff in other places too. If I hear complaints about lack of range, "rainbow" trajectory, etc., my answer is "learn how to shoot better". IF the game is "too far away", then get closer.

If they whine about how they can't get closer, its not that they can't, its that they can't do it as easily as they want to....

IF you can't get close enough, you don't shoot. That's why its called sport hunting.

A 210-ish gr cast slug at what ever its most suitable speed is would be a fine load in a .30-40, within the limitations of the user (range) if the rifle shoots them acceptably well. And there's lots of tricks for doing that.