308 Long Range?
- Thread starter buford1
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Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Lotsa guys use the .308 in long-range competition. The more successful load their own ammo.
Specific accuracy, out of the box, is sorta luck of the draw. Some are wonderful; others need "tweaking". Serious competitors spend a fair amount on tune-up work such as truing the bolt, re-crowning, etc.
Art
Specific accuracy, out of the box, is sorta luck of the draw. Some are wonderful; others need "tweaking". Serious competitors spend a fair amount on tune-up work such as truing the bolt, re-crowning, etc.
Art
The .308 is plenty accurate out to 1k. Like Art said, you may need to tweak a stock 700 a bit to get "groups". It'll help if you use bullets of 175gr or higher, but then again, Palma shooters use the 155grs, and they seem to do O.K. sometimes. 
Bench Rest quality accurate...a little tougher. It could be, but it's alot of work when there are better cartridges more suited to LR work. Doesn't mean you can't shoot a .308 at 1k, but don't expect alot of oohs and ahhs over your groups.
You'll need to contend with wind and muzzle velocity more so than with cartridges like the 300 Win mag or even the .50 cal. Be prepared to crunch some numbers to insure you have enough MV to stay supersonic (>1100fps at 0 ft ASA), and you may want to consider reloading.
Check out what they're using over at bench rest.com , and take a gander at some of their rigs. Or U.S Palma Team .
It can be done with a .308, but be prepared to earn it.
Bench Rest quality accurate...a little tougher. It could be, but it's alot of work when there are better cartridges more suited to LR work. Doesn't mean you can't shoot a .308 at 1k, but don't expect alot of oohs and ahhs over your groups. You'll need to contend with wind and muzzle velocity more so than with cartridges like the 300 Win mag or even the .50 cal. Be prepared to crunch some numbers to insure you have enough MV to stay supersonic (>1100fps at 0 ft ASA), and you may want to consider reloading.
Check out what they're using over at bench rest.com , and take a gander at some of their rigs. Or U.S Palma Team .
It can be done with a .308, but be prepared to earn it.
I don't have much experience with the VLS rifles but my preferred shop owner tells me he's seen a few VLS rifles that still need to be free floated properly whereas the VS/Police/PSS are usually so out of the box.
But with a little time and effort, a VLS in 308 should be perfectly competitive in long range shooting as would one in .243 with heavier bullets.
But with a little time and effort, a VLS in 308 should be perfectly competitive in long range shooting as would one in .243 with heavier bullets.
Steve Smith
New member
Well, its good and bad. Not the rifle, that's all good...its the caliber choice. .308 is used at long range in Palma and some 1000 yard Highpower, but when the competitors have a choice, they usually go with a wildcat, usually based on 6mm. EXPECIALLY BR guys.
Now, that .308 bolt would make a FINE Palma gun.
Now, that .308 bolt would make a FINE Palma gun.
For the past 9 months I've been working up loads for long range though my PSS. Granted, I've done a little work to it and changed the stock to an A.I. AICS.
Currently, The best load I've found is Sierra BTHP Matchking 180's over 42.0Gr of IMR 4895. I've had several groups at .3MOA at 100yards and they are consistenly under .5MOA. They stay sub 1MOA out to 750yards and then fall apart. I'm not sure it it's just the load or if I'm not doing my part to read the wind, temp, etc. Still working on it.
Buford1, What makes long range tough for us shooting stock remington's in .308 is the 1:12 twist bbl. From the people that I've talked to 180gr is the max bullet weight that will remain stable in a 1:12 twist. In theory, the heavier the bullet the higher the ballistic coefficient and the more stable it will fly. But for that you'd need a 1:11 or 1:10 twist. Sooner or later, I'll give 200gr bullets a try. Just to see. You may notice that the National Match M1A's are all 1:11 twist and the Hathcock M1A and super match is 1:10.
-Red-
Currently, The best load I've found is Sierra BTHP Matchking 180's over 42.0Gr of IMR 4895. I've had several groups at .3MOA at 100yards and they are consistenly under .5MOA. They stay sub 1MOA out to 750yards and then fall apart. I'm not sure it it's just the load or if I'm not doing my part to read the wind, temp, etc. Still working on it.
Buford1, What makes long range tough for us shooting stock remington's in .308 is the 1:12 twist bbl. From the people that I've talked to 180gr is the max bullet weight that will remain stable in a 1:12 twist. In theory, the heavier the bullet the higher the ballistic coefficient and the more stable it will fly. But for that you'd need a 1:11 or 1:10 twist. Sooner or later, I'll give 200gr bullets a try. Just to see. You may notice that the National Match M1A's are all 1:11 twist and the Hathcock M1A and super match is 1:10.
-Red-
Steve Smith
New member
Wrong
Only a fool would take load data off the internet and plug it into his rifle! Trust nothing that I am about to say!!! I am not liable for your stupidity!!!
A competition loaded .308 will be supersonic just past 1K. That is the whole point. One very hot load that many use for Palma is 45.5 grains of Varget, 175 Gr SMK, about 25k off the lands as prescribed by Mr. Salazar of Florida, a High Master. I doubt tat Mr. Echo's load is going sub at 750.
Only a fool would take load data off the internet and plug it into his rifle! Trust nothing that I am about to say!!! I am not liable for your stupidity!!!
A competition loaded .308 will be supersonic just past 1K. That is the whole point. One very hot load that many use for Palma is 45.5 grains of Varget, 175 Gr SMK, about 25k off the lands as prescribed by Mr. Salazar of Florida, a High Master. I doubt tat Mr. Echo's load is going sub at 750.
Steve Smith is right. The 175s as long as you push them around 2650-2675 fps will stay supersonic to 1000 yards. Varget is one of the best powders for this also. I tried 4895 and RL 15 and neither would give me the accuracy and velocity that Varget does with the 175s. With 168s though the 4895 rules. Redhook I know it's a velocity problem with your load because I use 42.5grns of 4895 with my 168 load and I get 2630 fps with it. You're probably going subsonic at 800.
Steve Smith
New member
800 is an odd place to test...at least for me. Think its happening that early? Seems like it would make it to 850 at least with that. Either way, switch to Varget and try again.
EchoFiveMike
New member
The 175 bullet is fine for the 1K if you get it to at least 2550 or so, depending on altitude and temp. The 168 sucks, and it's goes subsonic about 900'ish(from a 24 or 26" barrel), but it's big problem is that it makes the subsonic transition all funky because of it's boat tail. Notice the boat tail on the 175 is much longer than the 168. The 175 has less bearing surface than the 168.
If you are shooting a Palma rifle, with those long 30"+ barrels, you can make the 155 SMK work. Why you would want to do this in any other rifle is beyond me. The only reason for the 155's would be that you have a chance to make the Palma team, in which case you would not be asking the question.
I use the 190SMK's from the 308 for my target 1K shooting. The 175 is a flatter shooting bullet, which is better for UKD people shooting, but most people don't have to concern themselves with that. To be honest, I'm thinking really hard about going to the 210Berger or the 220 SMK for the 1K, since they are much better for wind. I use RL-15 and have no problems with the 308. I've used N140 as well. I used to use IMR4064, but got tired of the long sticks neccessitating hand weighing. My Redding measure throws RL-15 plus/minus <.1gn and that's plenty good for me. S/F...Ken M
If you are shooting a Palma rifle, with those long 30"+ barrels, you can make the 155 SMK work. Why you would want to do this in any other rifle is beyond me. The only reason for the 155's would be that you have a chance to make the Palma team, in which case you would not be asking the question.
I use the 190SMK's from the 308 for my target 1K shooting. The 175 is a flatter shooting bullet, which is better for UKD people shooting, but most people don't have to concern themselves with that. To be honest, I'm thinking really hard about going to the 210Berger or the 220 SMK for the 1K, since they are much better for wind. I use RL-15 and have no problems with the 308. I've used N140 as well. I used to use IMR4064, but got tired of the long sticks neccessitating hand weighing. My Redding measure throws RL-15 plus/minus <.1gn and that's plenty good for me. S/F...Ken M
Steve Smith
New member
Studies show that a shorter, fatter, cartridge will have more consistent ignition. The numbers favor the .308.
BTW, Ken, I've heard some mumblings that somehow the AR-15 (Service only from what I understand) is an applicable rifle for Palma (I know!) in either US or Intl rules (I don't know enough about this to get specific). Wouldn't those .308/155 shooters gulp if they saw an AR shooting 90's... hee hee hee! Might as well pack it up, boys!
BTW, Ken, I've heard some mumblings that somehow the AR-15 (Service only from what I understand) is an applicable rifle for Palma (I know!) in either US or Intl rules (I don't know enough about this to get specific). Wouldn't those .308/155 shooters gulp if they saw an AR shooting 90's... hee hee hee! Might as well pack it up, boys!
EchoFiveMike
New member
I've thought about using 30-06 AI for 1K, it'll help with the heavy bullets. But I've long since decided that 30caliber is a dead end when compared to 6.5 and 7mm's. Yes, the 308 is more inherantly accurate than the 06, but IMO the ballistic advantages of the 30-06 will outweigh the accuracy advantages of the 308, if any, when you get down to shooting at the 1K. This is doubly true if you load the 30-06 to 308 pressure levels, which there is no reason not to in a custom bolt gun.
Steve, the AR at 1K will be "interesting". I really think the short sight radius will be a PITA compared to some 30" monstrosity with a bloop tube, but the bullets will be superior to the 155Palma load. I really don't have any interest in competing with intentionaly inferior bullets. I have a 280AI on the way, and it'll be 180 VLD's at 2800fps. That bullet pegs out at 0.698 BC and was as slick as I could get without going to a .338, and the 280AI won't beat the crap out of me like a 338-06AI or something of that nature. I'm in the mid 190's with my 40X in 308, and I've pushed high 190's with my 7Mag on occasion, so I figure that I should be cleaning the 1K with a dedicated LR gun in 280AI. It'll help that I plan on doing far more LR shooting this coming year. Either with my AI, or if I go over to Korea or the sandbox again. I've got me a rocker now, so it's real echelon TOC work supporting my troops, but I'll figure out some way to get trigger time, rest assured. S/F...Ken M
Steve, the AR at 1K will be "interesting". I really think the short sight radius will be a PITA compared to some 30" monstrosity with a bloop tube, but the bullets will be superior to the 155Palma load. I really don't have any interest in competing with intentionaly inferior bullets. I have a 280AI on the way, and it'll be 180 VLD's at 2800fps. That bullet pegs out at 0.698 BC and was as slick as I could get without going to a .338, and the 280AI won't beat the crap out of me like a 338-06AI or something of that nature. I'm in the mid 190's with my 40X in 308, and I've pushed high 190's with my 7Mag on occasion, so I figure that I should be cleaning the 1K with a dedicated LR gun in 280AI. It'll help that I plan on doing far more LR shooting this coming year. Either with my AI, or if I go over to Korea or the sandbox again. I've got me a rocker now, so it's real echelon TOC work supporting my troops, but I'll figure out some way to get trigger time, rest assured. S/F...Ken M
Ken you are going to shoot the 210s and 220s out of a .308? I don't know how that would work as far as getting any velocity with it and you'ld probably need a 1 in 10" as I'm sure you know nand probably have as you're shooting the 190s already. They might have a better BC but it might not get good enough velocities to take advantage of it and it might have a rainbow trajectory. Keep us updated though as it would be interesting. I use both of those in my 300WM.
I think my problems with the 175s and 4895/RL15 is more due to my 1 in 12" twist than the powders. I'm sure with a faster twist those powders would work. I should have added that earlier. The Varget is the only powder that groups the 175s decent in my rifle.
I think my problems with the 175s and 4895/RL15 is more due to my 1 in 12" twist than the powders. I'm sure with a faster twist those powders would work. I should have added that earlier. The Varget is the only powder that groups the 175s decent in my rifle.
EchoFiveMike
New member
All my custom 308 diameter barrels are 1:10. The heavy bullets beat wind better, and retain velocity better. Trajectory don't matter as we're talking KD. If I'm shooting UKD, then different things have to be taken into account.
I ran the numbers for the 190's: At 2600fps, which is as fast as I care to push them out of 27" 308Win you will drop 378inches at 1K, drift 85 inches in a 10mph full value wind, and have 1320fps left at 1K. With the 220 at 2350fps, you are looking at -433 drop, but only 80inches drift. Here's the real kicker, at 1K, the 220 is doing 1300fps, same as the 190, but it has that extra 30gns of weight it carries with it, so it has more energy. This is really important for those guys who shoot 1200yds, where 220's get it done, and 190's are really marginal.
The 210 Bergers don't buy you much, if I can throw them at 2400fps(VLD's tend to go faster than similar weight Sierras), you're looking at 417inches of drop, 79.7inches of drift and 1320fps of retained velocity. Given those numbers, I'd shoot whichever works better, probably the SMK's. Those Sierra jackets are built like a brick outhouse, and they can take a pretty decent jump and retain good accuracy. The VLD's need to be real close to the leade, less than 0.020", with contact being good too. I don't buy this seating into the leade crap. I have no desire to pull powder from the guts of my rifle cause I had to unload and it pulled the bullet out. I leave that for the quacks. S/F...Ken M
I ran the numbers for the 190's: At 2600fps, which is as fast as I care to push them out of 27" 308Win you will drop 378inches at 1K, drift 85 inches in a 10mph full value wind, and have 1320fps left at 1K. With the 220 at 2350fps, you are looking at -433 drop, but only 80inches drift. Here's the real kicker, at 1K, the 220 is doing 1300fps, same as the 190, but it has that extra 30gns of weight it carries with it, so it has more energy. This is really important for those guys who shoot 1200yds, where 220's get it done, and 190's are really marginal.
The 210 Bergers don't buy you much, if I can throw them at 2400fps(VLD's tend to go faster than similar weight Sierras), you're looking at 417inches of drop, 79.7inches of drift and 1320fps of retained velocity. Given those numbers, I'd shoot whichever works better, probably the SMK's. Those Sierra jackets are built like a brick outhouse, and they can take a pretty decent jump and retain good accuracy. The VLD's need to be real close to the leade, less than 0.020", with contact being good too. I don't buy this seating into the leade crap. I have no desire to pull powder from the guts of my rifle cause I had to unload and it pulled the bullet out. I leave that for the quacks. S/F...Ken M