303 british reloads fired in Parker Hale rifle
- Thread starter cocopolo
- Start date
I routinely reload for my smles more or less 20 times before retiring the brass. Key is to partial length resize the brass so that the round is headspaced on shoulder, instead on rim, and the brass is worked as little as possible.
I don't like neck dies. Tried it and went back to partial length realizing with regular full length die.
-TL
I don't like neck dies. Tried it and went back to partial length realizing with regular full length die.
-TL
cocopolo. The best thing that ever happened to the 303 British chamber was P.O. Ackely. Even then the British rile had a problem. the bolt locking lugs were located at the rear of the bolt. I have a 1905 Ross 303, a very accurate rifle, I also have P 14s. I have no interest in fire to form, I form first meaning I deterring the length of the chamber first, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.
We all know the case head spaces on the rim, and that is about it. I have measured case head thickness and found some 303 cases with very thin case head thickness, one manufacturer had cases with case head thickness of .100".
Rimed cases, like belted cases started our as a design to hold the case head to the rear of the chamber, the design should get all 'A's for that. Then there is the insistence of a reloader to run the shoulder forward by firing and moving it back when sizing, for that the reloader should get all 'F's.
F. Guffey
We all know the case head spaces on the rim, and that is about it. I have measured case head thickness and found some 303 cases with very thin case head thickness, one manufacturer had cases with case head thickness of .100".
Rimed cases, like belted cases started our as a design to hold the case head to the rear of the chamber, the design should get all 'A's for that. Then there is the insistence of a reloader to run the shoulder forward by firing and moving it back when sizing, for that the reloader should get all 'F's.
F. Guffey
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William T. Watts
New member
leave er there!
I kinda like what Guffy had to say, I happen to agree with the idea of moving the shoulder only enough to ensure the round will chamber once it's been resized ("no more than .001")! Once the chamber has stopped the shoulder from moving forward it makes sense to leave it there when you resize the case! William
I kinda like what Guffy had to say, I happen to agree with the idea of moving the shoulder only enough to ensure the round will chamber once it's been resized ("no more than .001")! Once the chamber has stopped the shoulder from moving forward it makes sense to leave it there when you resize the case! William
Simply put: not true. I reload a minimum of 6 times even with thin-walled POS U.S. made cases. Many of my better quality cases have had 10 reloads & are just fine.
The trick is to not use rimless techniques on rimmed ammunition.
The second trick is to test instead of assuming & discard after a fixed number of firings.
Here's what I do & it actually works in the real world, not just on the internet.
Take regular full length dies & set them up properly for that chamber. Don't "just screw them all the way in because the Maker says so". Look up "Partial full length resizing" for a description.
I test by running a bent paperclip up & down inside the case feeling for a "trough" beginning to form inside the case. this indicates the case has stretched & is thinning & is approaching the failure point. From many cases checked this way its really obvious & you can't mistake the feel as the trough forms ONLY when the case is approaching failure & is quite large & distinctive.
Here's some full power nickel-plated Winchester (the worst offender for thin brass, & undersized rims) that was showing the symptoms after the 6th firing.
To answer the OP's question, the answer is, "no" with the caveat that reloading technique will have a lot to do with it depending on the chamber.
If the chamber is set up so that forward shoulder only has to advance a few thousandths at most before being supported by the chamber you'll get good brass life even with full length resizing.
If the chamber is "generous to a fault" then you'll need to either neck size or partial full length size to maximize brass life. Using either of these reloading techniques almost guarantees way more than 4 reloadings of your brass.
But it all depends on how the brass is interacting with your chamber.
Also, who told you "4 reloads and chuck it" for an Enfield? Normally that advice is reserved for auto loaders like Garands, M1As, and ARs which experience more brass growth as extraction begins while the cartridge is still under pressure.
Jimro
I have a Ross 1905 303 rifle, the lugs on the bolt are located on the front of the bolt. I have P14 rifles, all with the locking lugs located on the front of the bolt. The British Enfield 303 rifle has locking lugs located on the rear of the bolt, lugs located on the rear of the bolt allow the bolt to hump, when the bolt humps it shortens, when the bolt shortens when fired the length of the chamber increases between the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.
Another poor design was the 30/40 Crag, it had a bolt, the bolt had 'A LUG', not two, just one, Why? Because Springfield did not know how to build the rifle with two lugs. And then they decided the 30/40 Crag did not need two lugs. I know, there are owners that are in love with both rifles. If the British had a choice of rifles during the war with the Orange free states they would have traded their Enfields for Mausers, The Farmers purchases their own rifles, they had a choice, they choose the Mauser.
It did not get better when we got into war with Spain, we had the Crag, Spain had the Mauser.
The Ross was a Garand with out a gas system, I know, Garand never saw a Ross rifle.
F. Guffey
Another poor design was the 30/40 Crag, it had a bolt, the bolt had 'A LUG', not two, just one, Why? Because Springfield did not know how to build the rifle with two lugs. And then they decided the 30/40 Crag did not need two lugs. I know, there are owners that are in love with both rifles. If the British had a choice of rifles during the war with the Orange free states they would have traded their Enfields for Mausers, The Farmers purchases their own rifles, they had a choice, they choose the Mauser.
It did not get better when we got into war with Spain, we had the Crag, Spain had the Mauser.
The Ross was a Garand with out a gas system, I know, Garand never saw a Ross rifle.
F. Guffey
Chatting with the Brits regarding reloading SMLE .303 cases, their comments were to the tune of full length sizing them. Not too much, but enough to let them headspace on the case rim. Their neck is such that if they headspace there, that'll soften the blow to the firing pin and that causes erratic ignition which leads to poor accuracy. Good lots of their .303 arsenal ammo shot as accurate in their SMLE's as .30-06 match ammo did in M1903's. 15 to 20 reloads per case was the norm.
If a rimmed case (or belted one, too) has a shoulder area and angle that resists setback from firing pin impact, they can be full length sized just enough to set that fired case shoulder back a thousandth so they still headspace on the shoulder (not the rim or belt) and excellent accuracy's at hand. Case life is excellent, too, as minimum amount of metal's moved when full length sizing them.
If a rimmed case (or belted one, too) has a shoulder area and angle that resists setback from firing pin impact, they can be full length sized just enough to set that fired case shoulder back a thousandth so they still headspace on the shoulder (not the rim or belt) and excellent accuracy's at hand. Case life is excellent, too, as minimum amount of metal's moved when full length sizing them.
Another group confused about the difference between sizing a case to minimum length and disregarding the rim. The best thing to ever happen to the British 303 chamber was P.O. Ackely.
the 303 has too much tapper, in the beginning the rim held the case to the rear, when the round was fired all the case body had to do was fill the chamber, nothing changed when the belted case was developed.
Now, reloaders want to get 5+ firing from one case.
Who measures? What happened in front of the rim was of little consequence when the British made the Enfield.
F. Guffey
The whole thing about the .303 British and the rifle that fired it is that the entire system was designed to cycle rapidly and reliably and keep on doing so under the most atrocious conditions, whatever they might be, anywhere in the world ("The flag on which the sun never sets", etc.).
At that it succeeded admirably.
I have achieved at least 5 reloads FLR in an SMLE with a chamber so voluminous it's terrifying to think about. I dug out a box of old S&B cases just the other day, tumbled clean but not yet deprimed or sized from the last time I'd fired them, and while I did not measure them all, a broadly representative sample measured 2.236" OAL (max allowable 2.222"; trim-to spec = 2.212" from Speer #14) 1.840" to the base of the shoulder (SAAMI spec 1.790") and 1.931" to the top of the shoulder (SAAMI spec 1.890"). Diameters at those datum points are fine, but those cases will be retired from use for the kids to play with if they want to see how the press and dies work.
At that it succeeded admirably.
I have achieved at least 5 reloads FLR in an SMLE with a chamber so voluminous it's terrifying to think about. I dug out a box of old S&B cases just the other day, tumbled clean but not yet deprimed or sized from the last time I'd fired them, and while I did not measure them all, a broadly representative sample measured 2.236" OAL (max allowable 2.222"; trim-to spec = 2.212" from Speer #14) 1.840" to the base of the shoulder (SAAMI spec 1.790") and 1.931" to the top of the shoulder (SAAMI spec 1.890"). Diameters at those datum points are fine, but those cases will be retired from use for the kids to play with if they want to see how the press and dies work.
pathdoc, you answered my question:
Bart B., I was thinking they should avoid little chats with you, what ever they say could be held against them.
It was R. Kipling and Cannon Doyle that visited Africa, they decided the Enfield was all the troops were going to get, asking for a better rifle was out of the question, so? They went back to England and started programs to train marksmanship.
F. Guffey
Bart B., I was thinking they should avoid little chats with you, what ever they say could be held against them.
It was R. Kipling and Cannon Doyle that visited Africa, they decided the Enfield was all the troops were going to get, asking for a better rifle was out of the question, so? They went back to England and started programs to train marksmanship.
F. Guffey
Likewise, that headspacing invention by the British, the belt.
I thought Sir Arthur Doyle was a doctor (served in Boer Wars, Bloemfontein field hospital) and an author, not a field artillery officer nicknamed "Cannon." If he was with units trailing howitzers, maybe his nickname would've been "Howie."
There's an ex NFL player I think was named after his great grandfather who served with a long range howitzer unit in WWI; Howie Long.
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We're all forgetting one vital thing & F. Guffey more than most. He hates the Lee Enfields & prefers Mausers.
FACT:
The .303 British round & the rifles designed to use it were never ever thought of as reloadable. They were to borrow a phrase "fire & forget". They were designed to be utterly reliable under horrible conditions & to "whack the filthy Boche"/ dastardly Boers/ Fuzzy-Wuzzies or whoever, no matter how bad the conditions.
The ONLY reason "Tommy Atkins" picked up once-fired .303 brass was to make cigarette lighters or whistles out of them.
FACT:
The .303 British round & the rifles designed to use it were never ever thought of as reloadable. They were to borrow a phrase "fire & forget". They were designed to be utterly reliable under horrible conditions & to "whack the filthy Boche"/ dastardly Boers/ Fuzzy-Wuzzies or whoever, no matter how bad the conditions.
The ONLY reason "Tommy Atkins" picked up once-fired .303 brass was to make cigarette lighters or whistles out of them.