.30 Luger VS 7.62X25MM?
- Thread starter Zorro
- Start date
Two different things.
The 7.63 Borchardt cartridge, the 30 Mauser, and the 7.62x25 are the same except for loadings, IIRC.
The 30 Luger is a separate cartridge developed by Georg Luger for his refinement of the Borchardt pistol. It was chambered in the earlier version of the Luger. The later versions were known as Pistole Parabellum or P08 and were chambered in 9mm Luger.
The 7.63 Borchardt cartridge, the 30 Mauser, and the 7.62x25 are the same except for loadings, IIRC.
The 30 Luger is a separate cartridge developed by Georg Luger for his refinement of the Borchardt pistol. It was chambered in the earlier version of the Luger. The later versions were known as Pistole Parabellum or P08 and were chambered in 9mm Luger.
Just for completeness, there are also several loading levels for cartridges marked 7.62x25.
The lowest levels are suitable for the Tokarev pistols.
Next up are the Czech developed loadings specifically for the CZ-52 pistols.
And, I believe that the PPSH subguns are capable of handling even hotter ammo.
The 30 Luger is shorter than the 7.62x25.
Ruger didn't make any pistols for the 30 Luger, but did, at one time, offer a 9mm pistol which came with a 30 Luger conversion barrel.
denfoote,
Most existing cartridges are in one way or another adaptations or improvements on other cartridges. The .357 Mag revolver cartridge, for example, is at the end of a long line of improvements/bandaids which started with a black powder cartridge called the 38 S&W and progressed through at least three improvements on the way to its final incarnation. In Luger's case, he got it right on only the second try.
I don't know if Ruger made a pistol in 7.65 Parabellum (.30 Luger or 7.65x19) or not, but Colt made their Commander and Combat Commander in that caliber for export to countries that prohibit ownership of military caliber pistols.
I have a Combat Commander in 9mm, with the barrel marked ".30 LUGER". They had extra barrels, and rather than waste them, they simply drilled and rifled them for 9mm.
FWIW, when Luger expanded the neck of the 7.65 to 9mm, he had a problem getting case support. The 7.65 was supported on its bottleneck, but there was not enough room to bottle neck the 9mm, so he came up with the idea of supporting the case on its mouth. Browning, who up to that point had been using semi-rimmed cases, immediately saw the advantage, and the cartridges he designed after that (.380 ACP and .45 ACP) were supported (headspaced) on the case mouth. So Browning's best known cartridge was based on an idea stolen from Luger.
Jim
I have a Combat Commander in 9mm, with the barrel marked ".30 LUGER". They had extra barrels, and rather than waste them, they simply drilled and rifled them for 9mm.
FWIW, when Luger expanded the neck of the 7.65 to 9mm, he had a problem getting case support. The 7.65 was supported on its bottleneck, but there was not enough room to bottle neck the 9mm, so he came up with the idea of supporting the case on its mouth. Browning, who up to that point had been using semi-rimmed cases, immediately saw the advantage, and the cartridges he designed after that (.380 ACP and .45 ACP) were supported (headspaced) on the case mouth. So Browning's best known cartridge was based on an idea stolen from Luger.
Jim
That old Georg was pretty sharp.
I was just out shooting 3 9mms, a Colt Commander, a P38, and one of Georg's pistoles.
The old Luger is without a doubt the most user friendly of the three. With it's low bore axis it kicks straight back into your forearm with very little muzzle flip. Also, no hammer bite.
The other two are crude in comparison, torquing up and to the left and leaving the web of your hand a mangled mess of abused flesh.
Luger - the undiscovered best plinker.
I was just out shooting 3 9mms, a Colt Commander, a P38, and one of Georg's pistoles.
The old Luger is without a doubt the most user friendly of the three. With it's low bore axis it kicks straight back into your forearm with very little muzzle flip. Also, no hammer bite.
The other two are crude in comparison, torquing up and to the left and leaving the web of your hand a mangled mess of abused flesh.
Luger - the undiscovered best plinker.
Jim Watson
New member
Oh, dear.
True, the 7.62x25 Borchardt (Mauser, Mannlicher, Schwarzlose,Tokarev, CZ) got the industry started.
When G. Luger modified the Borchardt toggle lock gun into his own design he moved the mainspring into the grip frame behind the magazine well. To keep the grip width reasonable, he shortened the cartridge to produce the **7.65x21.5 Luger.** When the demand for a larger caliber arose, he opened the case up to 9mm **and shortened it to 19mm so as to make for the same OAL.**
If you just open a 7.65 out straight, you pretty much have a .356 TSW. The 9x21 Italian is officially defined as a necked up 7.65 (trimmed a little) and is not legally a lengthened 9mmP.
I have seen drawings for a prototype bottleneck 9mm, but it wasn't much shoulder so they went with the tapered case and casemouth headspace control.
The 7.62 Mauser is just too long for current production autos' magazine wells and slide strokes. So that is why you see 7.65 Luger barrels in guns for sale in "no military caliber" repressive markets. (Who cares what Switzerland and Finland used to do, anyhow.)
Has anybody here actually shot one of the Chinese conversions of Lend-Lease 1911s to 7.62? They have the front of the ejection port notched out so you can get out a loaded round and a new magazine, all pretty crude looking. Looks like they would have had to lengthen the magazine well, too, but I have never had one apart to see.
There was a thread here or on Pistolsmith.com by a shooter who was determined to make a 7.62 Mauser BHP by rechambering a 7.65 Luger barrel. He was going to use very blunt bullets seated very deep to make OAL. Never heard if he was able to make it work.
True, the 7.62x25 Borchardt (Mauser, Mannlicher, Schwarzlose,Tokarev, CZ) got the industry started.
When G. Luger modified the Borchardt toggle lock gun into his own design he moved the mainspring into the grip frame behind the magazine well. To keep the grip width reasonable, he shortened the cartridge to produce the **7.65x21.5 Luger.** When the demand for a larger caliber arose, he opened the case up to 9mm **and shortened it to 19mm so as to make for the same OAL.**
If you just open a 7.65 out straight, you pretty much have a .356 TSW. The 9x21 Italian is officially defined as a necked up 7.65 (trimmed a little) and is not legally a lengthened 9mmP.
I have seen drawings for a prototype bottleneck 9mm, but it wasn't much shoulder so they went with the tapered case and casemouth headspace control.
The 7.62 Mauser is just too long for current production autos' magazine wells and slide strokes. So that is why you see 7.65 Luger barrels in guns for sale in "no military caliber" repressive markets. (Who cares what Switzerland and Finland used to do, anyhow.)
Has anybody here actually shot one of the Chinese conversions of Lend-Lease 1911s to 7.62? They have the front of the ejection port notched out so you can get out a loaded round and a new magazine, all pretty crude looking. Looks like they would have had to lengthen the magazine well, too, but I have never had one apart to see.
There was a thread here or on Pistolsmith.com by a shooter who was determined to make a 7.62 Mauser BHP by rechambering a 7.65 Luger barrel. He was going to use very blunt bullets seated very deep to make OAL. Never heard if he was able to make it work.
Bill Adair
New member
A friend of mine bought a 30 Luger conversion barrel for his HP, thinking that it was a drop in, but found that he had to sleeve the front of the barrel to fit the HP slide bushing.
The 30 Luger does not have enough recoil to cycle the slide, although that was improved with hot reloads. He changed the recoil spring to a lighter one, but still has feeding problems.
Versions of the BHP were produced in 30 Luger, and we ran into someone at the range who owned one. My friend was able to measure and weigh the 30 Luger HP slide, and found that it was both thinner and lighter then the 9mm Luger version.
So much for simple barrel replacement conversions, they probably won't work well.
Anyone have a 30 Luger BHP slide for sale?
Bill
The 30 Luger does not have enough recoil to cycle the slide, although that was improved with hot reloads. He changed the recoil spring to a lighter one, but still has feeding problems.
Versions of the BHP were produced in 30 Luger, and we ran into someone at the range who owned one. My friend was able to measure and weigh the 30 Luger HP slide, and found that it was both thinner and lighter then the 9mm Luger version.
So much for simple barrel replacement conversions, they probably won't work well.
Anyone have a 30 Luger BHP slide for sale?
Bill
I don't think I agree, cheygriz. Almost-1600 fps 88 grained Czech ammo isn't going anywhere near my Polska Tok (which I agree is a strong and fine pistol - and not a sissy at c. 1400 fps w/ 88 grains), but I've fired it through the 52s.
I've seen "online experts" go both ways on whether the TT-33 or the CZ52 is stronger. Having fired both, taken both apart, and played with the various bunches of ammo intended for each, I feel that the CZ can probably take more than the Tula-Tok.
And I think it's wise to use std (c. 1400 fps) ammo in both models.
I've seen "online experts" go both ways on whether the TT-33 or the CZ52 is stronger. Having fired both, taken both apart, and played with the various bunches of ammo intended for each, I feel that the CZ can probably take more than the Tula-Tok.
And I think it's wise to use std (c. 1400 fps) ammo in both models.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I've seen two TT-30-type handguns with cracked slides and frames from firing Czech ammo.
Czech ammo is NOT good for these guns.
Even the Soviets didn't want Czech ammo in their Toks.
Czech ammo is NOT good for these guns.
Even the Soviets didn't want Czech ammo in their Toks.
Jason Demond
New member
.30 Luger
7.62X25
So says Google.
7.62X25
So says Google.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Toks - any Toks are not made to fire the hot loads that the CZ-52 can handle. Period.
Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember reading somewhere that Ruger did make a 30 luger pistol for export. It seems logical because Ruger has sold weapons in Europe for a very long time and some European contries like Italy ban the use of military calibers for Civilians like the 9x19.