30 Carbine Wildcat in 25 caliber reloading

[jsflagstad]

This is the very gun that got me into reloading. It was handed down from my grandfather who was a partime hobby gunsmith. What he did was sporterize this carbine with a nice Bishop Mannlicher stock and he rebarreled it necking it down to 25 caliber and added a nice 4x Weaver scope to it. It is a very neat / beautiful looking set up. I'm not quite sure why he built this gun, but all I can think was that 30 carbine guns were incredibly cheap at the time, and he most likely wanted to make it useful for something like varmints getting it to shoot a little flatter.

Being that my grandfather died in 1971 when I was only 6 weeks old, all I received with this gun was a box of "stuff" and no verbal instruction . It that box were the reloading dies H110, bullets, and lots of 30 carbine brass. There was also an old Hornady reloading manual that had 256 Winchester magnum loading data circled. I have been doing a little research on this, and have found that the 256 WM is a necked down 357 mag case. I would consider the 357 case and the 30 carbine case far too different even think that this reloading data would cross over. Actually, I did figure out that the 256 WM data was too hot, as I had a reload split by the case head and blew the magazine out the bottom, broke the extractor and cracked the stock . The gun is all fixed now and I was thinking about working up a good load for it, but I'm looking for a good place to start. In the box of "stuff", I have came across 75 and 90 grain 25 caliber bullets. I am hesitant to use reloading data from the 30 carbine because the raised pressure in using the 25 caliber bullet. Am I right here, or would 30 carbine data be a good start?

Does anyone out there have this type of Wildcat? Or ever heard of one before?

Thanks,

JSF

 

[gm110656]

That sounds like a very interesting piece. Your grandfather must have been quite tallented. I would recomend NOT using 30 carbine data but instead using 25/20 data. This might not have enough pressure to cycle the action but it's a much safer starting point.

 

[jsflagstad]

Hey GM, Thanks for the tip

I guess that it would make a lot of sense to use the 25-20 data instead of the 256 WM or the 30 Carbine data. I was about sick and thought that I runed the gun when the case had let go. Also, I may send the dies in to get them fixed up a bit because if memory serves me right, we could never get a good crimp on the bullet. I think he had the dies custom made at LEE as he only lived a stones throw away from there over in Cornell, WI. He had kind of a neat setup, he was the town barber on mainstreet, had his gun shop in the basement, and raised his family on the 2nd floor.

I have never heard of anyone with this combination before, and like I said he must have had something in mind for it. We have used it over the years for deer hunting and it has proven to be less than sufficient for the job. I heard that he was quite talented as you say, and as far as my mother is concerned he walked on water, but as I said I never really met him as he died at a young age (56) when I was just 6 weeks old. As far as I can tell, I think he just finished the gun before he passed away and never really got the time to work up a load for it. After I had the mishap with it, I decided that I would set it down for a while until I gained a bit more reloading experience. It is now about 10 years later, and I have grown my knowledge base a bit more and I think I can handle the task at hand. Sure would be neat if I could get 100yd MOA accuracy out of it, that would have made gramps pretty happy.

JSF

 

[Rimrod]

5.7 Johnson

The 5.7 Johnson was a .30 Carbine necked down to .224 caliber. In the Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions they state the case capacity is 16.47 grains of water. If this is close to your capacity the only loads they list are 40 gr. bullet with 14.0 grains of 2400 or 50 grain bullet with 14.0 grains of IMR4198.

Rod

 

[jsflagstad]

I think I need to slug the bore

My case capacity should be pretty close to that. I'm not sure if I could get bullets that light though.

I think to be on the safe side, I should slug the bore to see if it is: (.251 not likely), .257 or .258. Probably a good starting point and then go from there.

JSF

 

[Leftoverdj]

I'm with GM. Use top .25-20 data for your starting point and work upcarefully until the action cycles. I'd use something less touchy than H110 for starters, 4227 or 2400 probably.

 

[gm110656]

Slugging the bore might not be necessary. Chances are good that your grandfather got quality barrel stock for that gun and most likely of current manufacture for that period. With this in mind, I would place my money on the bore being .257 and nothing else. Load data to cycle the action is going to be a crap shoot until you get comfortable with your loading skills but whatever you do, error on the side of caution!!! You'll have to post some pics of this piece. I wouldn't mind shooting that one for sure

 

[jsflagstad]

I'll see what I can do for the pictures. H110 is what I was using before when the case let go, and I agree it maybe is a bit touchy for this application. Maybe Bullseye, 2400 or Unique would be a better choice and loading for 357 and 38 spec, I certainly have a bunch of that around.

I am going to keep my eye out for another 30 carbine at area gunshows, or atleast the action as that 5.7 Johnson looks rather neat and may make for a fun project. I wonder if it would be possible to neck it down to 17 caliber? That would be rather neat! I'll call it the "17 JSF"!!! What should a guy expect to pay for an action or a donor gun to start with? I have a bunch of spare parts in the box of "Stuff" I got with the gun, but not a complete action.

I have some time this weekend, maybe I will start to get this thing in order.

JSF

 

[gm110656]

Well, the 30 Carbine has reached collector status and you'll pay at least $300+ for an Inland. There were many companies that produced the M1 and some are more valuable than others. Good luck in your quest!

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...Maybe Bullseye..." Geezuz, NO. No guessing allowed. Unique, H110 and 2400 are .30 carbine powders, but not Bullseye.
You absolutely must slug the bore and make a chamber cast. It's entirely possible that your granda made his own wildcat based on the carbine case. It may have been one of his 'projects'. Assume nothing.
Unless you can find your granda's loading notes, assuming he did make notes, you may be best to hang the rifle up in a place of honour. Carbines aren't rare, but if your granda was playing with that one, it'd be a fitting tribute.

 

[jsflagstad]

IMR 4831 is all that the data lists

T.O.,

You are right. There is no data that I can find that speaks of Bullseye used as a powder. Actually, if I were to stick to the 25-20 loading spec's as have been recommended here, I would then have to use IMR 4831 as that is all I have seen data listed for.

I did finally find some notation that said that the bore is .257".

Thanks,

JSF

 

[Leftoverdj]

Eh, plenty of data for .25-20. For 75 grain bullets, top .25-20 loads are:
AA-1680 12.5
H4198 12.8
5744 11.2
H4227 9.3
H322 13.5

For 86 grain bullet:
H4198 11.5
H4227 8.6 grains
H322 12 grains
2400 8.8 grains

Any of those would be a safe starting load in your wildcat since it has more case capacity and will take much more pressure than .25-20 specs.

 

[jsflagstad]

Thanks Lefty..

Thanks for the info, I think I have atleast 2 of those powders on the shelf. I think this gun has the ability to be a good shooter but it will take a little work to get there. Now I just have to find a good use for it......

JSF

 

[Harley Quinn]

I have a 5.7 mm Johnson 30 cal carbine

I am also woking on a 30 Kurtz. Necked to 5.7 mm Johnson Or???

If you have the dies and all that, should be no problem. Just make sure you full size and put a good crimp on the bullet. I would go with the lightest bullet and 4227 It is a very popular powder.

Use Carbine brass, use the same primers, trickle your loads to be perfect.
A cast of the chamber dosen't seem necessary since you have the dies.

Use a light load and fire form your cases. Anneal your case's prior to sizing and get a good reloading book regarding what I have said.

Some of the cartridges you are talking about are rimmed and some are not make sure you are using the right cartridge. If not sure, cast the chamber or the die.

It takes numerous steps to resize from 30 cal to 25 cal. You might want to check with RCBS and get there input. You might even have to ream the inside of the cartridge (wall thickness at neck).

Start out with some new brass unfired and anneal the neck area. There are books that cover that step. Don't load more then 3 rounds and then go out and fire them.

I would go with the lowest setting for 4227 regarding the 30 cal loading.
2400 is ok also. Forget the others for now. If you have H110 fine.
Read the book on signs of pressure and stay on the light side, work up at a 1/2 of a grain at a time.

Always load your mag and let the bolt take the bullet from the mag.
Don't shoot any lead in a gas operated weapon. Make sure the barrel and chamber are very clean.

Good luck.

Harley

 

[Leftoverdj]

Don't shoot any lead in a gas operated weapon.

Just because? Where did that come from, and why should we pay any attention to you?

 

[Harley Quinn]

Leftoverdj, Because could be one reason.

The others are it plugs up the hole that allows the gas to operate the piston that causes the weapon to reload and fire the next round.

At the velocity he will be pushing that bullet it is not a good idea even if it was not gas operated.

Also I have done this for awhile and thought it would be a good thing to tell him.

Leftoverdj, have you ever cleaned a gas operated rifle or pistol with lead in the port that sends the gas to the piston? I suggest you go ahead and shoot it with lead bullets, and then get back to me. I'd love to hear you then.

Harley

 

[gm110656]

I hate to take sides here but I've been shooting lead gas checked bullets in my SKS for years and at 1,700 fps. Maybe I am missing something.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Why would you want to shoot a sks at 1700fps?

But that is right around the speed where you might get buy with it.

Good for you, you won't catch me doing that. For one thing I would not shoot the sks at 1700 fps and second I would not shoot lead in it. That is probably one gun I will never reload for.

You do what makes you happy and I will still say it is very seldom, a practice to shoot lead in gas operated weapons.

Harley.

 

[gm110656]

Well, the 1,700 fps velocity is only a few hundred fps off the mark of military ammo and it's meeting my expectations so that's why but, I have chronographed loads up to 2,000 fps with fine ejection. Shotguns have been gas operated for decades and for use with unshielded pure lead slugs so it's not only me that's confused.

 

[Harley Quinn]

GM Go for it if it please's you.



Harley