30-06 Bolt opening problem

[Bucksnort1]

Today, a friend and I were testing some of my reloads in his Remington 30-06
We fired about ten rounds. All went well until we had a problem opening the bolt after firing a particular round. After a few minutes wrangling with the bolt, it opened. I checked the case to see if it split. Here is the information on the case/load and what I found.

1. The case was not split.
2. The bolt would cycle to its upper most position but would not pull to the rear.
3. We could close the bolt completely.
4. The primer is cratered
5. The firing pin did not penetrate the primer
6. The bullet hit the intended target well enough to be considered a good reload and suitable for loading the remaining components
7. There is no bulging I can see above the extraction groove (tomorrow, I will measure for comparison to SAAMI specs.
8. We re-chambered the fired case, which was smooth. Extraction was also smooth with no hang up of the bolt.

Load data:

1. 55 grains of IMR 4350
2. 165 grain Sierra, Game King, Boat tail bullet
3. Large rifle primer
4. W-W Super case

Is this a problem with the rifle or the load?

 

[briandg]

Never fire your l o ads in another rifle that they weren't developed for.

When you say cratered, do you mean that the primer was forced back into the firing pin hold? ThAt is a sign of extreme over pressure. The charge isn't overpowered, as far as I can see,

I don't know what happened, but you did make an error running your ammo through a different gun.

 

[Hook686]

Why an error if the case was full resized, and trimmed to length
?

 

[condor bravo]

Likewise to post #3; if the rounds chamber properly, why not fire them? If they won't, that of course is a different story. But a blanket statement that loaded rounds for a specific rifle should not be fired in another is absurd. Otherwise, in my case, I would need three die sets and separate brass for three .375s, and two die sets and separate brass for numerous duplicated calibers. But that has never been necessary since reloads for one have always functioned properly in the other duplicated caliber rifles. Rifles are mostly 700 Remingtons with a few Winchester 70s.

The above situation appears to be the result of an overload finding its way in, possibly due to a reloading oversight, and nothing at all to do with having been fired in the other Remington rifle. I've experienced another cause for extremely difficult bolt extraction accompanied with easy bolt lift but that does not seem to be the situation here due to the apparent overload.

 

[briandg]

It isn't a matter of fit.

First, a load pushed to maximum may be too hot for a different barrel. If this thing did push out a primer, obviously, something went wrong. Over the phone, so to speak, there's no telling why his tenth round locked up the bolt, but one place to start is loads, and whether they were suitable. Looking at the imr data page, the very first line of it says " starting load" in bright red letter. There is a reason for starting loads, those starting loads may actually be all that some rifles can take. Max loads in some rifles may be unsafe in others. Every powder maker states that you should start at lower charges. It's even possible that the bullets were the wrong weight.

The imr pages show this stated load as safe, So I don't know what happened, it may not have been the round at all, but it's possible, and if it was the round, it may have been an over charge, or using the wrong powder, or simply a tighter or partially obstructed barrel.

I don't know if it was the gun, either.

The one thing that stands out here is that he fired handloads in another man's gun, and that gun may have been damaged, Mar be by the ammo, and THAT'S A BAD THING. A guy who worked with me borrowed ammo on an elk hunt and blew his rifle out. He still has embedded powder. I saw a pic of the rifle, and other than a crack on the bolt and blown out stock, it didn't appear to be catastrophic. He used a 7 mm rem mag.another guy used borrowed full power .357 loads in his gun, and in his third set, he w found that the frame had warped.

You can have a blowout by firing max loads in a rifle without testing the rifle, or even less than max. Having it happen in another guys gun, after telling him that they were safe is at the least, embarrassing. I never share loads. I'm paranoid, or just cautious, depending on who is listening.

 

[old roper]

To me it's not good idea to shoot load in someone else rifle that you haven't worked up loads for and I won't do it with brass shot in my 30-06 and don't care if it fits.

I'm not sure who's manual you used and Hodgdon data for 30-06 with 165gr Sierra start load is 56gr/IMR-4350.

Something did happen and may be lesson learned.

 

[44 AMP]

if the rounds chamber properly, why not fire them? If they won't, that of course is a different story. But a blanket statement that loaded rounds for a specific rifle should not be fired in another is absurd.

While I usually love to shoot holes in blanket statements, in this case, its not as absurd as it sounds, it can be a matter of practical, physical safety.

The classic (and today, hopefully fairly widely known) example is the .45-70.

There are three (3) different load levels (sometimes called Tier I, II, & III), based on the strength of the rifle being used. Ammo loaded for use in the original black powder rifles, such as the Trapdoor Springfield, ammo loaded for the somewhat stronger lever action rifles (Win 1886 and Marlin 1895) and ammo loaded for modern single shots and bolt actions (Ruger, Mauser converstion)

Tier III loads could blow up a Tier I gun. And they WILL chamber in it.

You can load ammo for use in multiple guns (and with one set of dies, and generally one die setting), BUT, you should ensure that the load chosen is safe (and desirable) in each gun, by working up to it, in each different gun, first.

Most folks won't do this, they assume safe in one, safe in all, and just go ahead and shoot. MOST of the time, they get away with it. Sometimes, not so much, and if you know people who have had guns damaged or destroyed by reloads that were safe in a different gun, you know what I'm talking about.

The way ALL the individual factors come together and play off each other MATTER.

Now, the situation you have, with just ONE round of .30-06 giving you trouble and the other 9 not, is a slightly different matter.

If it were the gun and the load being incompatible, one would expect it to be that way for all or nearly all shots.

If one out of 10 is trouble, the most likely conclusion is that there was something significantly different about THAT ROUND.

Many possibilities, but in general, cratered primer and sticky extraction are signs of higher than normal (or desired) pressure. What causes increased pressure??

More powder / less powder space

Resistance to the bullet moving

Those are the main ones
increased powder charge (without you realizing it)
decreased case capacity (such as a thicker case than the rest of that batch)

Too thick case mouth (too long) so the case has no where in the rifle to go (expand into) to release the bullet normally

Bullet seated just long enough to enter the rifling

All these can raise the pressure in the gun when it fires, INDEPENDENT of the gun itself (which can also have an effect) and which are not things found just visually looking at the round after loading.

From the fired case, you can't tell if there was a little more powder than you thought or if the bullet was jammed into the rifling. You can check the case for length, and thickness and expansion though.

Compare the hi pressure case with the other cases in that batch, see if it might have been some difference that could be named the culprit.

Good Luck, and let us know if you can identify just what it was, or not..

 

[Jimro]

Remington semi auto rifles are not exactly the best designed machines for more than a few shots for a few reasons, heat management being one of them.

Failure to extract after a few shots is relatively common symptom, even with factory ammunition in some of the 742 and 7400 series rifles. They were designed for hunting, and I think they are best for that role. For every guy that has an awesome 742/7400 there's probably another guy wishing he'd bought a bolt action.

Jimro

 

[jmr40]

That is no where near a max load. In fact my manuals list 56 gr as the starting load, he says it was loaded with 55 gr powder. Unless you managed to get over 60 gr in there, which is the listed max load, I don't think it was the problem. One of the advantages of either H3450 or IMR4350 is that it is nearly impossible to fit enough powder in a 30-06 case to get an overload.

I think you just had a bad, or improperly sized case.

 

[Dufus]

The load you listed is below the start level according to Hodgdon, so nothing wrong there, with exception.

The cratered primer is common with Remington bolt rifles as they oversize the firing pin hole. You normally would not class a primer for over pressure indication by itself.

If there were no ejector marks on the case head, then no worry.

Here is an excellent article on the subject:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/04/evaluating-pressure-signs-in-reloaded-cartridge-brass/

 

[MJFlores]

Sounds like a sticky case due to pressure. In my 06, I get 2750 fps with 55 grains of 4350 under a 180 gran Nosler partition. That's a warm load in anyone's book.That 165 has to be moving well over 2800 which again, is warm.

 

[condor bravo]

It should be understood that interchanging loaded rounds between rifles implies that 1), the loads are within manual load limits and will chamber properly and 2), that the rifles are capable of handling factory ammunition. Both conditions were satisfied in the situation under discussion. The other rifle being a Remington bolt rifle, possibly a 700 or one of its cousins. I have no quarrel with what was being done. Some kind of a quirk occuring with the 10th round with no fault of the rifle.

 

[condor bravo]

Yes I certainly concur with 44amp and his statements relative to the .45-70 as they relate to different rifles. Similar comparisons can be made to other calibers with different, usually vintage, rifles.

 

[Bucksnort1]

Here is a little more information about this situation.

1. The cases were never loaded for any of my rifles and were never fired in them.

2. The cases are various head stamps.

3. Cases were resized then checked with a case gauge.

4. The results of the test firing and accuracy was superb.

 

[Jim Watson]

That load is below maximum for Sierra, Lyman, and Ken Waters.

The only thing I can think of is to discard that case and carry on.
The last half of 44Amp's post, after the .45-70 stuff, is applicable.

 

[dahermit]

Remington semi auto rifles are not exactly the best designed machines for more than a few shots for a few reasons, heat management being one of them.

Failure to extract after a few shots is relatively common symptom, even with factory ammunition in some of the 742 and 7400 series rifles.

They were notorious for the extractors ripping through the rims, leaving the cases in the chamber. The tell-tail for that problem was that the sides of the cases were peppered with indentations from the burned powder left in the chambers.

 

[44 AMP]

. The cases are various head stamps.

This MIGHT by the reason.

Check you fired cases, including the "bad" one for weight. Different brands (or even #lots) can vary in weight, and since all are the same dimensions on the outside, differences in weight mean different capacities on the inside.


and, why are we talking about Rem semi autos, anyway?
While they do have the issues mentioned, I see No mention of them in the OP...

 

[briandg]

I believe that you need to carefully examine that rifle.

Again, it seems unlikely that it was the powder c h argue but that's certainly not to be assumed.

You assure us that the case was fine, other than the cratering, and that they were all within spec. That ammo appears that it should be safe

This pretty much leaves nothing to cause a problem but the rifle, it seems, so look it over carefully, and I have no suggestions beyond that.

 

[AllenJ]

2. The cases are various head stamps.

I've always discourage this practice. Different brands and even lots of brass can cause pressure changes.

 

[T. O'Heir]

55 grains of IMR 4350 is fine. Hodgdon's site shows it as 1 grain below minimum(1 below a published minimum is fine. That's just a testing anomaly. Too far below minimum can cause weird pressures that can blow the rifle.) with a 165 Sierra SPBT, but 1.5 less than Max for a 165 GMX. Mind you, a GMX is a solid copper bullet. Mid range load in my old Lyman manual.
Various head stamps isn't a pressure creating thing. Might be a case related thing. Still have the culprit?
"...That's a warm load in anyone's book..." Not really. Only 200 PSI higher than Bucksnort1's 165 load. 400 PSI less at Max.