250 Savage

[Jack O'Conner]

Roy Chapman Andrews had one of the BEST jobs of all time. He was paid to explore and hunt trophy animals for the NYC Metropolitan Museum of Natural History. Roy travelled to all the continents except Antarctica by steamer ship since his hunts occurred long before overseas flights were offered. Many of his taxidermy mounts have been freshened a bit but are still displayed. The movie character of Indiana Jones is based upon life of Roy Chapman Andrews. No kidding!

He wrote a number of books. My favorite is: This Business of Exploring. My local library found a yellowed copy for me to borrow. The setting is the vast Gobi Desert of Mongolia and Roy has been hunting animals and fossils. The largest sub-species of sika deer were found, hunted, and eaten. He called them miniature elk.

Roy Chapman Andrews hunted extensively with his lever action 250-3000 Savage rifle. He relied on accurate placement and rapid bullet upset to kill animals in their tracks. He favored the then popular 87 grain bullet for its accurasy. But Roy tackled Alaskan brown bears, African lions, and other dangerous beasts with his 6.5mm Mannlicher carbine. He never wrote about feeling under gunned.

Sometimes, I think we get too much information about various Premium bullets and forget about the time proven effectiveness of the older soft-nosed styles. The 87 grain bullet was the only bullet offered for many years. Yet this is the bullet that began its long history of lethal one shot stops.

Jack

This photo of a sambar deer was sent to me by a hunter from New South Wales, Australia.

 

[skinewmexico]

Looks like a Sika. I still think that the 250 died because the factories quit loading the 87g bullet.

 

[Scorch]

My dad hunted with a Savage Model 99 in 250-3000 for many years. I don't remember ever going hungry, and we ate a lot of venison.

I still think that the 250 died because the factories quit loading the 87g bullet.

I'm not too sure, but my opinion is that folks are in love with speed, and it didn't have enough velocity, what with the 257 Roberts shooting the same bullet 400 fps faster, and then the 25-06 trumping the whole show. Velocity is king. If you don't believe it, look at the forums, and even the folks shooting 308s want max velocity. The 250 Savage wasn't high-powered, but it worked. I do believe my next rifle build is going to be a 250 Savage.

 

[skinewmexico]

I need to get my 99 out and shoot it.

 

[HOGGHEAD]

250-3000

Some one please correct me if I am wrong. But I think the 250-3000 name comes from the fact that the cartridge shot a 100 grain pill at 3,000 fps?? I am sure about the velocity part-but not positive about the bullet weight, but I am pretty sure it was a 100 grain bullet.

This basically makes the 250-3000 slightly better than the 243 which shoots a 100 grain pill at 3,000 fps(better SD)??

Marketing plays a bigger part in cartridges' dying and prospering than a lot of people think. This is easily seen when you compare the 243 Wincheser to the 6mm Remington. As you guys know the 6mm is slightly superior to the 243, but yet the 243 is substantially more popular. There are a couple reasons why the 243 outlived the 6mm other than marketing(how Remington made the rifles-twisrt rate and such), but basically marketing was the reason.

IMO marketing is the key here. Remington and Winchester did not want to produce a rifle with a cartridge that recognized Savage. This is just my opinion but I have heard many old timers in the gun industry say the exact same thing. The same thing happened to the 300 Savage, and the 300 Savage is a very fine cartridge.

Cartridges that carry the Winchester name prospered over ones that carried the Remington name for one reason. Who made the ammunition. Winchester was and still is the dominant ammunition manufacturer. Winchester out sells all the others combined. And before some one points it out, I realize Wincheser ammunition is no longer affiliated with Winchester firearms(which does not really exist either). But the ammo still carries the name. I remember an old timer at the SHOT show(who worker for Winchester ammunition company) tell me once how it killed the people at Wincheser to load the 7mm Remington Magnum. Tom.

 

[El Paso Joe]

I did not know he hunted. I was familiar with his name for naming the dinosaur "triceratops andrewski" which he found in the Gobi.

I really liked the 87gr round in the 250-3000. It shot really well in mine. The 87gr was the one they came up with to get the 3000 fps - the 100 gr never quite made it.

 

[Nnobby45]

Some one please correct me if I am wrong. But I think the 250-3000 name comes from the fact that the cartridge shot a 100 grain pill at 3,000 fps?? I am sure about the velocity part-but not positive about the bullet weight, but I am pretty sure it was a 100 grain bullet.

It was named for the 87 gr. Varmint bullet at that velocity.

The factory loading for the 100 gr. bullet used by deer hunters was about 2800 fps. This was achieved with modest chamber pressure and a pleasant rifle to shoot.

Winchester had no such reservations about loading their new .243 to higher pressures (which achieved about 3000 to 3100 fps) and the 250 Savage died as a result. It needn't have.

Remington then introduced the .244 Rem cartridge with a 1 in 12" twist suitable for the 87 gr. varimint bullet, but deer hunters wanted 100 gr. bullets and the rifles simply wouldn't stabilize them for good accuracy. The rifle gained a bad reputation and sales dropped.

Remington simply increased the twist to 1 in 10" to stabilize the heavier 100 gr. bullet and renamed it the 6mm Rem. The .244 and 6mm Rem. cartridges are one and the same. Only the twist of the two rifles are different.

 

[Jimro]

Scorch,

Not all of us are enamored with velocity. I'm a big fan of the "big bullet at moderate velocity" school of thought.

While the 250-3000 was popular on another continent the 9.3x62 and other medium bores were the mainstay of serious hunters.

Jimro

 

[Martyn4802]

Jack,

Excellent posting..
As a young kid in the first and second grade in 1940 and 1941, we would listen to live radio broadcasts of Roy Chapman Andrews speaking from his foreign country locations during school hours. That was, for me, the most memorable time in school. Other things that went on in school are vague memories, but the hours spent listening to Andrews are vivid memories. As a little tike, I loved that guy and wanted to just like him when I grew up.
I didn't know till now that he hunted with a 250-3000 however, and at that time it would not have been something I would have understood at all. It was his lifestyle that captured me.
The 250-3000 was so named because it was the first factory chambering that would propel and 87 grain bullet at 3000 fps, not a 100 grain. That came later with better powders. I have two bolt action rifles chambered in 250-3000, and both are very accurate, one with Varget and the other with 760, and each shooting the 90 grain Sierra HPBT bullet.

Thanks for the memories...

Martyn

 

[phil mcwilliam]

At least it gave us the 22-250. I also favour high velocity centrefire lever guns for deer hunting. .308 works ok for sambar.

 

[CraigC]

It's a shame but a lot of great cartridges have gone by the wayside, not because they weren't a good idea and not because they didn't do what they were supposed to. Just because people didn't "get it". Nowadays everybody is clammering for the biggest magnum they can find for their 100yd deer rifles. Lots of great moderate cartridges like the .250 are out there looking for a good home. I know I definitely "need" a .250!

 

[crowbeaner]

All bemoaning the loss of the 250/3000 won't bring it OR the .257 Bob back. I for one believe that if the big firearms companies WOULD CHAMBER NEW RIFLES in these calibers, that the production couldn't keep up with the demand for them. One simply cannot buy what the factory doesn't make! Ruger makes a few here and there, and possibly the Miroku Browning shows up in one or other, and Remington only makes a few in their Classic series. Put the D*** rifles on the shelf and see how many .243s AREN'T sold. All Remington has to do is put the M788 back into production in all the neat, tidy, effective cartridges, and demand will trump production figures. When the buying public is forced to spend thousands on custom rifles, the only ones to gain are the custom manufacturers. I simply can't afford to have Ultra Light Arms make me a .257. I have a hard time scratching up the dough for a USED M722.

 

[HOGGHEAD]

Three Formulas

Death to the quarter bore!! I never had much use for a quarte bore, and I have owned a few. The quarter bore is too big for varmints and too small for big game. And when compared to the .264-I think the .264 wins every time.

Will the quarter bore do the job?? Yes. But there are too many other good cartridges that will do it better. And as others have said. If the demand was there they would at least bring the Roberts back into mass production. Tom.

 

[CraigC]

I really think it's a supply & demand thing. Cartridges like that go away because of a lack of sales. If people wanted them, the manufacturers would produce them. The discerning shooter that wants a .250 instead of a Super Ultra Short Fat Magnum is really the minority and manufacturers have to turn a profit or they'll be out of business. Oftentimes what is simple and effective with little fanfare is not what makes it in this fickle marketplace. People are like monkeys, easily distracted.

 

[Nnobby45]

Well, all of the diverse opinions on the subject have cleared my brain a little bit.

The 250-3000 (250 Savage) was loaded to standard pressures with powders that were available in the year 1914 and for some years thereafter. That is, a 100 gr. bullet at about 2800 fps. Very respectable back then.

Not a big issue, since it was primarily used as a Varmint gun along with 87 gr. bullets.

Improvements were later made in powders that enabled the 250-3000 to be loaded to 3000 fps or better, at the same pressure as before, with the 100 gr. bullet preferred by deer hunters.

But it never was. Savage used the improved powder technology to maintain 2800 fps 100 gr. at LOWER than previous chamber pressure.

Winchester only needed to take advantage of the better powders, market their new product as a deer rifle, and the 250-3000, at lower chamber pressure/velocity, couldn't compete (as a deer rifle).

Too bad they never tried. Savage lost out in the varmint AND deer category to the .243.


Never was about velocity hungry shooters.

It was about a management decision by Savage and Winchester coming along and taking advantage of it by loading their new .243 Win. to standard to SAAMI specs.

Handloaders were (and are) able to keep the .250 Savage competitive with the .243, 6mm Rem, etc.

 

[Nnobby45]

And when compared to the .264-I think the .264 wins every time.

That's for sure. Never saw a cartridge destroy as much meat as .264.

Never saw a deer killed deader than with a "quarter bore". Or quicker, for that matter.