.25 magnum auto pistol

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imp

New member
While cartridge and pistol design is not in my realm of expertise, I feel like there would be a huge market for what I'm getting ready to describe.

In my mind, i see a smallish auto pistol, maybe the size of Rugers LC9. Chambered for a round of .25 but with a modest increase in velocity over the pathetic .25 acp. Maybe a 50 grain bullet pushed to maybe 1100-1200 fps. Centerfire, straight walled and rimless.

I'm just thinking there ought to be something thats concealable, but still large enough to get a decent grip on, chambered for a round atleast as effective as a .22 lr or maybe just a tad more, but with the reliability of a serious defensive tool. All the current .25's on the market are either tiny or junk, and commonly both. .32s are much in the same category, although a little better. Guess I'm wondering why there arent better options for recoil sensitive folks.
 
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Bill DeShivs

New member
The .25 acp is not really that "pathetic." It's on par with .22LR and more powerful than some .22LR.
Of course most .25s are tiny! If you want a bigger gun, then get one. You make a lot of untrue assumptions and generalizations. :rolleyes:
 
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PSP

New member
Are the NAA 25 or 32 rounds still made? I've never seen any of it stocked in a shop. I recall that years ago, beside the NAA pistols, Keltec made a few guns in these calibers. Probably a semi collectable these days.
 
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9ballbilly

New member
One of my CC guns is a CA snub-nose .32H&R mag. loaded with Hornady critical defense ammunition. Although not on par with many of the more popular SD calibers, it is IMHO considerably more than "little better" than any of the .25 cal. offerings I'm aware of. This revolver is easily concealable, comfortable to hold, and has light recoil. It seems that you may not have adequately researched what is currently available before drawing your conclusions.
 
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Skans

Active member
...50 grain bullet pushed to maybe 1100-1200 fps.
Click to expand...

You get that, and more, with a 22 magnum (a/k/a 22 WMR). I'd rather just see some really small semi-auto 22 magnums.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
The main reason you don't see ultra small guns in more powerful rounds is, essentially, there is no free lunch.

There is simply no escaping the fact that if you increase one part of the package, other parts have to change, as well.

Guess I'm wondering why there arent better options for recoil sensitive folks.
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Keeping the smallest size, but increasing the power means MORE recoil. Staying with a blowback action means more slide mass and more powerful springs are needed.

Going to a locked breech design means a larger, bulkier gun. And while there have been "big" advances in making more powerful guns smaller, there is a point where you simply cannot get smaller with existing materials. Parts have to be a certain size, to withstand the pressure of working. Smaller, and they break.

Chambered for a round of .25 but with a modest increase in velocity over the pathetic .25 acp. Maybe a 50 grain bullet pushed to maybe 1100-1200 fps. Centerfire, straight walled and rimless.
Click to expand...

Given its not your admitted area of expertise, this idea seems reasonable. BUT, here are the real world limitations ..
.25cal? easy. The rest gets more complicated. First, 1100-1200fps is NOT "a modest velocity increase" in the .25ACP. 1200fps is about 50% increase! Not a trivial matter from a design standpoint.

1100fps+ from a straight walled .25 caliber case means either A)case has to be longer than .25ACP (means bigger gun) or B) case has to have significant pressure increase to stay .25ACP size (means either bigger gun - locked breech- , or much stronger spring in blowback design - meaning difficult to operate the slide).

Centerfire and rimless is easy. But the rest needs a delicate balance of factors, and to get one thing, you often have to give up something else.
 
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imp

New member
But that was the whole point. I'm looking for something larger than the vest pocket sized .25.

My mother is currently carrying a walther p22, and my wife carries a ruger sr22 pistol. Neither pistol is really designed for carry. And while I've argued the merits of a revolver, apparently wheelguns aren't cute enough. Also, the very tiny pistols are a no-go.

I started wondering why couldnt I find a centerfire pistol, designed for carry, but with a felt recoil near to or only very slightly more than that of the walther or ruger.
 
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imp

New member
Let me add this to my list of gripes. It seems like no company actually designed a pistol for a female. They design one with a man in mind, then paint it pink or write ladysmith on it. Add that to the fact my wife has almost no interest in firearms or sport shooting. She will go to the range with me once a month or so to put a few rounds downrange and remain relatively familiar with the manual of arms, but she's not going to be practicing ball and dummy drills or dry firing for hours with a snap cap. She wants something she can shoot comfortably and accuratly, and I want her to have something as reliable as possible.
 
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jeager106

Moderator
Doubt there would be a market for such a .25 magnum.
I'd love to see a .25 rimfire.
Oh, that's been done 100 years ago & died a slow death.
For recoil sensitive shooters the .32/.380 are viable options though
on the light side in my opinion.
I have a Beretta 21, a small .22 l.r. but won't use if for defense because it's a rimfire and I've had too many duds even with fresh premium(?) ammo.
The only advantage to the .25 auto, my opionion only, is that it's a centerfire thus more reliable for going bang instead of "click, oh, sh#t".
I've seen too many homocides & suicides to believe the .25 auto
won't destroy life. Same for the .22 r.f.
 
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carguychris

New member
44 AMP said:
First, 1100-1200fps is NOT "a modest velocity increase" in the .25ACP. 1200fps is about 50% increase! Not a trivial matter from a design standpoint... 1100fps+ from a straight walled .25 caliber case means either A)case has to be longer than .25ACP (means bigger gun) or B) case has to have significant pressure increase to stay .25ACP size (means either bigger gun - locked breech- , or much stronger spring in blowback design - meaning difficult to operate the slide).
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In addition, 1200 fps in a small package is a recipe for fairly intense noise and muzzle blast. Ask anyone who has fired a Tok, a G33, or a .38 snub loaded with really hot +P rounds using 125gr or lighter bullets.

Even if the recoil impulse is actually mild, the gun may have high felt recoil, particularly to inexperienced shooters; it's been my observation that such folks often perceive muzzle blast as recoil, and flinch badly.
 
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Bill DeShivs

New member
Why would small pistols be a "no go?" Is this YOUR criteria or theirs? A Keltec P32 is fairly small, very flat, extremely easy to carry, reliable, and has negligible recoil. .32 acp is much better than .22lr for protection.
The P32's brother, the P3AT has a lot of recoil for it's size.
 
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JD0x0

New member
The problem with the .25 is it basically uses similar projectile weight as .22LR but has a larger diameter. This reduces sectional density, and therefore penetration. If you don't have a lot of penetration you can forget about expanding ammo, IMO.

IMO .22's are superior to the .25acp for defense unless the .25 happens to feed and fire more reliably.
50 grain .25 cal SD= .113
40 grain .22 cal SD= .114

MV of 50 grain .25acp = ~760fps
MV of 40 grain .22LR = ~1000-1100fps

I'll take the superior penetration over having a .027'' bigger hole, that doesn't go as deep.

Anyway, I think a better idea would be to take a .40S&W or .357 sig, or 9x19and neck it down to .312 cal (.32) so it can safely fire a 100 grain XTP at roughly 1200-1500fps but I guess it wouldn't be too different from a .30 tok/7.62x25
 
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JERRYS.

New member
instead of a .25 magnum, hows about just a 50gr. fmj that actually gets 850 fps from a Beretta 950BS, or a 35gr. h.p. that actually gets 975 fps from the same?
 
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carguychris

New member
JD0x0 said:
IMO .22's are superior to the .25acp for defense unless the .25 happens to feed and fire more reliably.
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However, .25ACP is a physically shorter round, and smaller pistols have been made in .25 than .22, unless you count Shorts.
JD0x0 said:
50 grain .25 cal SD= .113
40 grain .22 cal SD= .114
Click to expand...
This is arguably a trivial difference.
JD0x0 said:
MV of 50 grain .25acp = ~760fps
MV of 40 grain .22LR = ~1000-1100fps
Click to expand...
From a 1.5"-2.5" barrel, or a rifle barrel?

It's very difficult to do an apples-to-apples comparison of .25ACP vs. .22LR velocities because almost all published ballistic data for .25ACP is from a 2" or shorter barrel, whereas most data for .22LR is from a rifle; if .22LR pistol data is even available, it's usually for a 4"-6" barrel.

The ballistics tests I've seen for .22LR 40gr solids out of a 2" barrel typically yield ~860-900 fps, which equals ~70 fpe of muzzle energy. .25ACP 50gr FMJ from a 2" barrel typically yields ~780 fps, which equals... ~70 fpe. Not a big difference there. :p

Neither round is my first choice for SD, but IMHO assertions of the ballistic superiority of one round over the other, in a pocket gun, typically amount to splitting hairs. :rolleyes: However, in terms of pocket-gun choices, .25ACP wins; in terms of ammo cost, .22LR wins (at least after the current Panicky Squirrel Rodeo ends). This is how I would make my choice.
 
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JD0x0

New member
If we go by the info on BBTI
you can reasonably achieve 1000fps in a 3'' barrel with CCI 40 grain velocitors.

They're showing 1059fps in a SP101 with 2.25'' bbl
998fps in a walther P22 3.5'' bbl
988 in a Phoenix 3'' bbl

And 1026 fps in their 3'' test barrel which they cut off from 18'' in 1'' increments, and recorded the mean velocity data.
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html
 
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Bill DeShivs

New member
.25 acp penetration in gel is around 12-14". That's pretty good penetration.
People seldom take barrel length into account, but Carguychris is absolutely correct. There is no ballistic advantage in the .22lr, and functioning is often substandard. Quality .25 autos usually work very well, btw.
 
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