.22LR for military use
- Thread starter C7AR15
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johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Yes.
Not in that manner.
Not in that manner.
.22LR trainers have been in military use for about as long as there have been .22LRs.
Francis Gary Powers (and I would assume the other U2 pilots) had a High Standard .22lr as part of their survival pack.
The biggest problem with combat use of the .22LR, besides it LOW power, is that the rounds themselves are relatively fragile. You can get a full auto .22LR to run, fairly well (with good ammo) BUT other than as a pampered specialist weapon its simply neither very useful, nor good at surviving the rigors of infantry combat.
If an FA 10/22 or one of the cool belt fed "Browning" MGs jams at the range, its not life threatening. Pilots survival pistol, suppressed? good deal. Size & weight and bulk of ammo very good for the role.
For a ground combat role, including clandestine sentry removal, for the same amount of "effort" in weapon tech a much more powerful round is possible.
For example, a 9mm will do a better (more reliable) job taking out a sentry than a .22LR, both suppressed so noise is not a factor.
If you're thinking of something like a .22LR mini gun, the problem is twofold, one is the "return" on the investment, meaning how much downrange damage is possible for the size and bulk of the weapon, and the other is the technical issues of the heel type lead bullet of the .22LR being easily bent and not being well suited to high speed feeding, compared to rounds like the 5.56mm.
Francis Gary Powers (and I would assume the other U2 pilots) had a High Standard .22lr as part of their survival pack.
The biggest problem with combat use of the .22LR, besides it LOW power, is that the rounds themselves are relatively fragile. You can get a full auto .22LR to run, fairly well (with good ammo) BUT other than as a pampered specialist weapon its simply neither very useful, nor good at surviving the rigors of infantry combat.
If an FA 10/22 or one of the cool belt fed "Browning" MGs jams at the range, its not life threatening. Pilots survival pistol, suppressed? good deal. Size & weight and bulk of ammo very good for the role.
For a ground combat role, including clandestine sentry removal, for the same amount of "effort" in weapon tech a much more powerful round is possible.
For example, a 9mm will do a better (more reliable) job taking out a sentry than a .22LR, both suppressed so noise is not a factor.
If you're thinking of something like a .22LR mini gun, the problem is twofold, one is the "return" on the investment, meaning how much downrange damage is possible for the size and bulk of the weapon, and the other is the technical issues of the heel type lead bullet of the .22LR being easily bent and not being well suited to high speed feeding, compared to rounds like the 5.56mm.
The OSS used full metal jacket 22LR for their operations Yep, they ordered it by the pallet. Why did they use FMJ 22LR, in land warfare you can kill the other guy any number of ways, but if you shoot him, it has to be with a humane bullet, no lead bullets. ( we are not talking shotguns and 00 shot.)
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bamaranger
New member
pics
I have seen pics of what I believe was the IDF using suppressed .22 rifles to plink dissidents in street uprisings in Israel. These were mainstream pics, found on the internet.
REgards pics, I have never heard of a FMJ .22lr cartridge. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but a new one on me. Can someone supply more info and pics on such a round.?????
Not .22WMR
I have seen pics of what I believe was the IDF using suppressed .22 rifles to plink dissidents in street uprisings in Israel. These were mainstream pics, found on the internet.
REgards pics, I have never heard of a FMJ .22lr cartridge. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but a new one on me. Can someone supply more info and pics on such a round.?????
Not .22WMR
Arizona Fusilier
New member
I'm quite sure that Navy Seals used supressed .22s in Vietnam as "assassination" weapons. Don't know why they did then, and I doubt they would today.
The modern day concept of "supression" has to include a reasonable chance of defeating cover, and probably body armor. Otherwise, most trained military professionals would consider it a first-class annoyance.
The modern day concept of "supression" has to include a reasonable chance of defeating cover, and probably body armor. Otherwise, most trained military professionals would consider it a first-class annoyance.
bamaranger
New member
canoli
That's funny.
On track, wasn't the AR7 a military "survival" .22 for aircrew. Or at least intended for that role. There may have been other .22 aircrew weapons also.
The comments regards bad .22 ammo are spot on as well. In some instances I used to pack a .22lr Berretta clipped to the armpit of a ballistic vest. Heat, humidity and sweat was hard on the gun and the ammo. Not uncommon to have FTF with 2-3 rounds from a magazine on cartridges carried for more than just a few days. I just began to use new ammo anytime I did it.
That's funny.
On track, wasn't the AR7 a military "survival" .22 for aircrew. Or at least intended for that role. There may have been other .22 aircrew weapons also.
The comments regards bad .22 ammo are spot on as well. In some instances I used to pack a .22lr Berretta clipped to the armpit of a ballistic vest. Heat, humidity and sweat was hard on the gun and the ammo. Not uncommon to have FTF with 2-3 rounds from a magazine on cartridges carried for more than just a few days. I just began to use new ammo anytime I did it.
Israel uses suppressed Ruger 10/22 rifles for dealing with protestors.
http://www.rugertalk.com/The-plinker-went-to-war-The-IDFs-Ruger-10-22-Ruger-Talk.html
http://www.rugertalk.com/The-plinker-went-to-war-The-IDFs-Ruger-10-22-Ruger-Talk.html
Don Fischer
New member
I think using any kind of 22 LR is against the rules of war. But then I also read some where that the Japanese did use them wanting to wound only as it took another out when it happened. Don't know if that is true or not.
Years ago in Colorado I was shifting through a gun shop and came on an exact replica of a 98 Mauser but scaled down and made a 22 RF. I asked about it as I'd never seen or heard of one! Seem's the German's used them as training rifles. Right or wrong that was one neat rifle, also expensive!
Years ago in Colorado I was shifting through a gun shop and came on an exact replica of a 98 Mauser but scaled down and made a 22 RF. I asked about it as I'd never seen or heard of one! Seem's the German's used them as training rifles. Right or wrong that was one neat rifle, also expensive!
Jim Watson
New member
A co-worker was in ground operations for cargo planes flying "The Hump" from India to China during WWII.
The planes were provided with Stevens .22-.410 "overandunders" as survival weapons. The idea was that you could hunt small game with it if forced down in the Burma jungles. The Nervous Nellie REMFs got worried about the image of the lead bullets and lead shot, so they took out the shotshells and provided jacketed .22s. Doubt that would give you much traction with the Nips if captured, but that was the regulation.
He came away with one of the little Tenite stocked combination guns as a service souvenir.
The planes were provided with Stevens .22-.410 "overandunders" as survival weapons. The idea was that you could hunt small game with it if forced down in the Burma jungles. The Nervous Nellie REMFs got worried about the image of the lead bullets and lead shot, so they took out the shotshells and provided jacketed .22s. Doubt that would give you much traction with the Nips if captured, but that was the regulation.
He came away with one of the little Tenite stocked combination guns as a service souvenir.
Don Fischer
New member
Didn't the Geneva convention make anything other than FMJ bullet's illegal?
ShootistPRS
New member
No the Geneva convention never mentioned guns or ammunition.
Short answer: The Geneva Convention didn't address ammunition, the Hague Convention addressed ammunition, and the U.S. did NOT sign onto ammunition restrictions of the Hague Convention---but we pretty much have adhered to them even though we didn't sign them.
This comes up frequently. There is usually confusion between the:
Geneva Convention
which you can read about here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions
and
Hague Convention
which you can read about here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907
I'm no expert on these conventions. There are some folk here that are experts. I think the Wikipedia information is mostly correct but probably incomplete as there have been whole books written about these subjects.
Model12Win
Moderator
The IDF uses suppressed Ruger 10/22s and SR22s to bridge the gap between conventional less lethal options and full power rifle fire.
The Russians use or did use a straight-pull .22LR suppressed sniper rifle modified from a match target rifle design. They developed it when after action reports during the first Chechen war showed that the Chechen rebels .22 rifles made very effective and quiet urban sniper rifles for picking off sentries very stealthily.
Not sure if any other militaries use it currently but I am sure several do to some extent, and not just for training purposes.
The Russians use or did use a straight-pull .22LR suppressed sniper rifle modified from a match target rifle design. They developed it when after action reports during the first Chechen war showed that the Chechen rebels .22 rifles made very effective and quiet urban sniper rifles for picking off sentries very stealthily.
Not sure if any other militaries use it currently but I am sure several do to some extent, and not just for training purposes.