.223 v 12 gauge - HD Long-Arm Part 2

[Schmit]

"It was not at all like Topic had immagined being Locked would be like. It was like he was reborn, a new begining. Topic looked around at all the bandwidth he now had. It seemed endless.

He thought back to his previous life and all the posts there. Would people go back and look at them prior to posting in Part II? He wondered and hoped they would. Topic didn't want to use any new bandwidth on posts/ideas that had already been covered. Topic looked forward to his new life."

Another excert from the yet to be released book "Forum"

------------------
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"


[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited June 18, 2000).]

 

[KilgorII]

You're talented Schmit, lol.

 

[DOCSpanky]

Definantly crippled to high for crutches

------------------
I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!

 

[VictorLouis]

Yes, very creative and funny. I've handled several NFA SGs at an area dealer. I must admit, those few less inches of barrel *seem* to allow for a much faster swing, or transition, from target to target. The balance point also seems to be improved too. For those of you who own them, or have shot them, is this just an illusion? Is the recoil going to be noticeably worse than an equivalent gun with its normal 18" tube?
I have to wonder how one 55-69gr. .223 projectile is going to have more effect than over TEN times that amount of lead directed at the same area. Follow-up shots will be faster with the carbine vs. the pump gun, BUT will they even BE needed with the SG? If you're equipped with a reliable SA SG, that miniscule advantage is now moot.
Now, if for some reason the fight had to continue on, outside, the pendulum starts to swing the other way a bit, yes?
But, a proficient SG user can transition to slugs from the sidesaddle or buttcuff. So, again, I can see this debate going on.

 

[Dave McC]

Did some shooting in low light with a 14" bbled 870,at an instructor's school. Low light shooting meant night blindness after the first shot, much brighter than with an 18". Better ammo selection might mitigate the fireball some, but I doubt it'll go away...

 

[Jonathan Chenault]

look at it this way. u can have the rifle on ful auto and sitll miss . u wont misswith a 12

------------------
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me
Phil 4:13

 

[Coinneach]

Au contraire, Monsieur Chenault. Missing with a shotgun takes no special talent. Hitting accurately and decisively takes beaucoup practice.

 

[Glamdring]

Hitting with anything [fist, elbow, foot, SMG, SG, rifle, etc] takes practice.

Goto a dojo or boxing gym and give the heavy bag a little push to get it moving and then see how many misses you have with kicks or punches.

Anyone have any ideas on how many pellets of various sized shot or buck would be needed on target to have effect on a goblin sized critter? Buck isn't legal for deer hunting here so I have not been able to field test it.

 

[Master Blaster]

I would go with a .223 due to my inability to fire a shotgun accurately. Anyone who gets a shotgun and thinks it is a deathray and they don't need to practice even more than with a rifle is fooling themselves.

 

[KilgorII]

I shot a deer this past season with Federal 3" magnum copper plated 00 buck from my 12 guage Remington 870 with a 20 inch improved cylinder barrel. I was squated on the ground at 35 yards when I took the broadside shot. It patterned about 30 inches at 35 yards. I've been told to expect about 1 inch of spread for every yard traveled. This held pretty true and would give you a 7 inch pattern at 7 yards in the house. He was hit by 11 of the 15 pellets and fell after a half step dying 20 seconds later. 6 shots ripped through his lungs. One shot went all the way through and broke his opposite shoulder. The others hit in various places in the neck and chest.

Glean what you can from this rough description. It appeared to be a little more devastating than 11 simultaneous .32 acp shots. At 7 yards and under the results should be even more devastating as the velocity is higher and the spread tighter. I have my 870 loaded with birdshot and feel that at the ranges in my apartment it will drop most intruders when they receive a full load to their sternum. I say most... the only intruder I can think that it would not stop would be one with hard plate armor that has trained to take the blast of a 12 guage and keep going. That is maybe what 0.0001% of the people in this country?

As an aside to all this long arm talk. My 870 is currently locked up and would take 30 seconds at least to get to it. I carry my Glock 9mm on my hip at all times. Remember the first rule of a gunfight. Would you turn around to get you longarm if someone is threatening you kids or wife? Or would you rather have a pistol at the ready? If I know there is going to be trouble I'll leave. If I can't I'll grab a longarm. But most of the time you don't know when trouble will occur. Thus a psitol is the best home defense weapon... most of the time.

 

[Dave McC]

At 10 yards,the pattern from my HD 870 is about the size of a shirt pocket. Aim is crucial,and one of the harder things a firearms instructor has to do is demythologize students about " You don't have to aim a shotgun, just point at the right Zip Code and pull the trigger"...

The advantage to a shotgun for HD is the massive amount of energy it can dump into a target. There's no guaranteed stopper this side of tactical nukes, but the shotgun comes as close as anything will.

BUT.....

Whether you prefer the shotgun, handgun, AR or atl-atl, technology will never substitute for expertise. And expertise means sweat and time.Attitude and training means more in the real world than owning a Loudenboomer SP or a tricked GM.

 

[DOCSpanky]

Agreed, my mossy 500 is 6-8" at indoor ranges,

PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT!

------------------
I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!