223 brass or 5.56 brass

rude robert

New member
I am waiting to get my rifle out of jail. so, before i buy any rounds to shoot up for the brass, i need to make a decision on what im going to buy and why. my ar will handle both rounds for one. my main objective is to make good rounds for both yotes and peeps if i ever find any lol. i can get a box of 5.56 with 990 rounds for $400 or just pick up any other 223 rounds. again i want the brass to reload. i havent looked too much for just bass for either of these 2 rounds, i figured since i have to break in the barrel i think id get something that i can shoot at first before i reload them. any suggestions or opinions thx again
 

Hammonje

New member
The brass is the same for both. It's the chambers that's different.

.223 Rem vs 5.56 NATO
.308 Win vs 7.62 NATO

Same rounds....different chambers. You don't buy a 5.56 NATO die set do you???? No you get a .223 Rem die set.

It's confusing at first, but when you start gunsmithing, ie installing and finish reaming barrels, you have to educate yourself about these matters.
 

rude robert

New member
thx for the reply, but i was actually talking about buying either the 5.56 or 223. i didnt know if there is an advantage after the round has been fired. i know one's neck is longer and one takes a little less powder from what i here. so in my thinking i thought of the spent cases. does one have an advantage over there other. thx robet
 

ScottRiqui

New member
If you're buying bulk amounts of ammo and want to reload the brass afterwards, make sure it's Boxer primed and not Berdan primed.

Also, I don't know if there's a lot of steel-cased 5.56/.223 ammo floating around like there is with 7.62 mm, so that may or may not be an issue.
 
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Jim243

New member
Robert

The brass is not the same for 223 and 5.56. There are differences. That is why you can use 223s in a 5.56 but can not use 5.56 in a 223.

1. The shoulder of the cases are at a different angle for one.
2. Bulk 5.56 rounds are made for military use and:
a. The brass is thicker and has less space in it than a 223
b. Has a crimped primer in it and needs to be swedged before you can reload primers in them.
c. Will require more case preperation and will be harder to resize.

First things first. Does your AR have a 223 barrel or a 5.56 barrel. I know you said it will take both, but if the markings on your barrel is .223/5.56 it is a 223 barrel. If it says 5.56/223 then it is a 5.56 barrel.

It is impossible to find 5.56 dies, so you will have to special order them and while the cost is not out of sight, you will have to wait 6 months to get them. I know I tryed.

If you are just getting into reloading, it would be easier to start out with 223 brass, winchester and remington brass is available but not cheap. Their brass is softer than that used in manufacturing 5.56 and easier to work with both in resizing and priming.

Since you are using a AR for your rifle, you will need to get a "X-Small Base" resizing die to use on your cases.

Since the chamber of your rifle will be cut to fit the CORRECT angle of the cartrage (223 or 5.56) I would suggest that if it is indeed a 5.56 you stick to the cheaper 5.56 bulk ammo and stay away from trying to reload for that rifle.
If however it is a true .223, then you already have your answer.

As an example my Bushmaster Varminter is a 223/5.56 and gives me nothing but problems with 5.56 reloaded cases, while I have no problem with .223 cases in the same gun. (remember that you have to develop suffecient gas pressure to cycle the bolt.)

Jim


Jim
 

rude robert

New member
thx jim that is what i was getting too. i didnt know that there was that much more to the 5.56 and more trouble resizing them too. i was trying to see which way i could go, i was also looking at how many different bullet options i had. it looked like with the hornady book, that there is two. they were heaver bullets, probably too heavy for rabbits,peeps,and yotes. that is, if i ever find them so i can shoot them, that is a different story lol. fyi the place where i bought the ar said that it would shoot the military tactical rounds just as well as the 223. but ill double check it when i get it, plus ill call bpms and ask them too. but u made my mind up already lol. i want to shoot it, i like reloading but my trigger finder has an uncontrollable twitch in it lol
 

mony

New member
5.56 vs. 223

I'm no expert but will forward this to you from another site where I do some reading on the subject. I read this some time ago and the link is now obsolete. FWIW Also check out the "Wylde" chambering availability.

"http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/n...aspx?storyid=11

straight from the site;

223 Rem VS 5.56mm

There are a lot of questions about these two cartridges. Many people think they are identical - merely different designations for commercial and military. The truth is that, although somewhat similar, they are not the same and you should know the differences before buying either cartridge.

* The cartridge casings for both calibers have basically the same length and exterior dimensions.
* The 5.56 round, loaded to Military Specification, typically has higher velocity and chamber pressure than the .223 Rem.
* The 5.56 cartridge case may have thicker walls, and a thicker head, for extra strength. This better contains the higher chamber pressure. However, a thicker case reduces powder capacity, which is of concern to the reloader.
* The 5.56mm and .223 Rem chambers are nearly identical. The difference is in the "Leade". Leade is defined as the portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. It is also more commonly known as the throat. Leade in a .223 Rem chamber is usually .085". In a 5.56mm chamber the leade is typically .162", or almost twice as much as in the 223 Rem chamber.
* You can fire .223 Rem cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and velocity over firing the .223 round in the chamber with the shorter leade it was designed for.
* Problems may occur when firing the higher-pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a .223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads and gun functioning issues.
* The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.



Before buying either of these two types of ammunition, always check your gun to find what caliber it is chambered for, then buy the appropriate ammunition. Most 5.56mm rounds made have full metal jacket bullets. Performance bullets - soft points, hollow points, Ballistic Silvertips, etc. - are loaded in .223 Rem cartridges. Firing a .223 Rem cartridge in a 5.56mm-chambered gun is safe and merely gives you slightly reduced velocity and accuracy. However we do not recommend, nor does SAAMI recommend, firing a 5.56mm cartridge in a gun chambered for the .223 Rem as the shorter leade can cause pressure-related problems."
 

bullspotter

New member
Personaly I would save some $$ if your looking to buy in bulk. Lots of 223/556 brass for sale. You can reload 556 brass with 223 dies and run it in 223 marked guns with no problems. Mil brass dose have less room for powder. My accuracy loads are good for both mil and com brass, with the same load. With out pressure problems. In fact i load and shoot a large amout of it mixed. Ive shot reloaded 556 brass in 3 bolt guns and one AR all marked 223. Now shooting factory 556 ammo in a 223 might cause some ploblems. Im not sure I donnt wast mony buying loaded ammo, I reload all my 223 ammo, havent bought a box in well ever.... or the last 25 years anyways.
 

CrustyFN

New member
Here's one thing to look at. If you buy 223 ammo it won't have a crimped primer and you won't have to swage the primer pocket. If the 5.56 brass is thicker I haven't noticed it to be enough to make a difference. I have seen 223 and 5.56 cases cut in half long ways and there is no noticeable difference to the naked eye.
 

Hammonje

New member
Some folks don't quite get it.....THEY'RE THE SAME THING!!!!! The dimensions of 5.56 NATO and .223 Rem rounds are the same.

Military brass is superior as it is thicker, especially in the web area. This will give you more reloads. Quit making something so ridiculously simple so freakin' difficult. It's obvious you are a newb, but this is way too much and there is a lot of info on this thread that is dead wrong. Doesn't suprise me as folks give opinions when they should keep their mouths shut. The chamber is different between the two, while the dimensions are exactly the same.

Mil brass is easy to resize. It's a .223 Rem case, not 30.06 or .308 Win. A baby could resize this stuff. The only negative is the primer pocket crimp. Two turns of an RCBS chamfering tool and it's done and it only has to be done once.

READ THIS AND UNDERSTAND....

223 Remington versus 5.56 mm NATO

These 5.56x45mm NATO cartridges are identical in appearance to .223 Remington. They are, however, not completely interchangeable.While the 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are very similar, they are not identical.

Military cases are generally made from thicker brass than commercial cases; this reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders[9]), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. NATO EPVAT test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the location used by the United States civil standards organization SAAMI. The piezoelectric sensors or transducers NATO and SAAMI use to conduct the actual pressure measurements also differ. This difference in measurement method accounts for upwards of 137.9 megapascals (20,000 psi) difference in pressure measurements. This means the NATO EPVAT maximum service pressure of 430 megapascals (62,000 psi) for 5.56mm NATO, is reduced by SAAMI to 379.21 megapascals (55,000 psi) for .223 Remington.[10] In contrast to SAAMI, the other main civil standards organization C.I.P. defines the maximum service and proof test pressures of the .223 Remington cartridge equal to the 5.56mm NATO.

The 5.56mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 Remington chambering, known as SAAMI chamber, is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber (Rock River Arms)[11] or the ArmaLite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56mm NATO and .223 Remington equally well. The dimensions and leade of the .223 Remington minimum C.I.P. chamber also differ from the 5.56mm NATO chamber specification.

Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56mm NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered gun due to the longer leade.[12] Using 5.56mm NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[13][14] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56mm NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56mm NATO ammunition.[15]
 

CrustyFN

New member
Here you go.

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snuffy

New member
Military brass is superior as it is thicker, especially in the web area. This will give you more reloads. Quit making something so ridiculously simple so freakin' difficult. It's obvious you are a newb, but this is way too much and there is a lot of info on this thread that is dead wrong. Doesn't surprise me as folks give opinions when they should keep their mouths shut. The chamber is different between the two, while the dimensions are exactly the same.

AMEN!

It's about time came right out and said it! The case outside form IS THE SAME! It's the chambers that differ.
 

bedlamite

New member
Either brass can be used in either chamber, but the internal case volume may be different causing pressure differences between the two. Pick one, develop a good load with it, and be happy.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
How big of a difference can the internal volume make? Specifically, I have a mixture of Lake City and PMC brass that I'm loading for range blasting ammo. If I'm in the middle or low end of a recommended powder range, do I have to worry about the reduced volume of the military brass causing excessive pressure?
 

bullspotter

New member
ScottRiqi

It could be enough to cause a pressure problem if your on the high pressure end of 223 brass. On a low end or mid range load your pry ok to mix the 223/556 or just differnt 556 brass with the same powder charge. Regular reloading rules say work your way up with a new load. Its worth the time to be safe. I have a bolt gun I was pushing pretty hard with IMR 4895, with com223 brass the case was almost full, the same charge wouldnt even fit in the LC brass i have with out overflowing. This gun has its own brass. All my AR loads are fairly mild and mixing 223/556 brass with my load is safe. I did test them and work up looking for problems with each headstamp though.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
Thanks. I've just loaded my first batch of .223 using the uncrimped PMC brass (I'm waiting on my swager to arrive before I do anything with the crimped Lake City brass.) The ammo I put together is 23, 24, and 25 grains of H335 with a 62-grain FMJBT. I haven't fired any of it yet, but I'll definitely watch for signs of overpressure.

When I start using the LC brass, I'll start over again back at 23 grains - I just wanted to make sure that the reduced case capacity wouldn't make even the starting loads unsafe.
 

Jim243

New member
I guess we will just have to put some cases on a diet. Gee these are just 223 cases not 5.56. All the same Bull Hockies. For all you "informed" experts, just let us know when you buy your first AR. And include pictures of your bolt faces and gas tubes so we can see how much damage you have done to a gun that cost $1,000 or more.

.223 Rem Case Weight vs. Capacity
Case Manufacturer Case Weight* H20 Capacity**
Lake City 06 92.0 30.6
WCC99 95.5 30.5
Sellier & Belloit 92.3 30.5
Remington 92.3 30.4
PMC 93.5 30.4
Hirtenberger 93.7 30.4
Lake City 04 93.0 30.4
Federal 96.3 30.2
Hornady 93.9 30.1
IMG (Guatemalan) 95.4 30.1
Lapua (new lot) 93.4 30.1
Winchester 93.9 30.1
Olympic 97.4 30.0
Radway Arsenal 96.1 30.0
PMP 104.5 29.9
FNM 93-1 97.3 29.8
Lapua (old lot) 104.0 28.0
 
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Hammonje

New member
Case weights are not that much different. I like LC brass b/c there are so many loads developed with that brass. You can often get a complete component match with chrono data from these loads. Match this data with reloading manual cross-reference and start on the low-middle end. You'll be suprised to find many max accuracy loads below suggested velocity.

If your a good shot a superior group will jump out at you off the target, Tac up to 64 gr and RL-15 for the heavies if more than I could have ever wanted. Sub-MOA handloads are the norm with a good AR-15 and a load development course.

30 Carbine is a challenge since the rifle is not that accurate to start. You'd be suprised the groups you can get for specific rifles.
 
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