.221 fireball quetions

[m&p45acp10+1]

Ok I inherited a CZ bolt action rifle from my great uncle that passed away a few months ago. I picked it up today. I need some quetions awnsered if possible. I did shoot it with some factory Remington varmint ammo, and I would have to use my dial caliper to measure a 5 shot group at 100 yards. I am gonna have some fun with tack driver.
Ok question 1 is there a die that I can neck down .223 brass with that cost less than $60? I am still looking on midway for dies. Most say special order 30+ days. I did find a clearance 2 die set of Redding dies from a source at a price that I will take those. I still want a Lee collet die with that, I plan on neck sizing only, and feeding them one at a time.
Question 2: Any suggestions on bullets, and powder. I have a box of Hornady V max 55 grain FMJ BT. I have H 110 powde, I have 2400, titegroup, Trail Boss, and AA#9. If there are any other powders you would like to suggest I am open to new possibilities, since this is a new rifle that hos only cost me 3 hours of driving time.
Thanks
Nate

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

Ok I checked Midway again. I found a Redding forming die. Only problem is all of the trim dies are at least a 30+ day wait. Most are 90+. So is there a way I can trim down the brass without the trim die. If you could give me a link to something I would greatly apreciate this.

 

[SVO]

Redding makes a case forming die and a case trim die for forming the .221 Fireball out of .223 or .222 brass. RCBS may also. You also will need a extended shellholder to use with the forming die. After the case is formed, you will have a long neck that will need trimming. The trim die will save you lots of time trimming the case to length and is worth it's cost. I think that I paid around $50 or so the the form die and trim die many many years ago. I'm sure that the price is probably much higher these days. If you use once fired brass, you will find that annealing the cases before forming them plus a good case lube will make the process go easier. If you use military .223 brass, you may have to turn the necks to avoid pressure problems. All depends on your guns chamber. I have one of the Remington XP-100 pistols that's chambered in the Fireball. It's a accurate round in the XP, and would expect the same with a rifle. Good luck with your project if you choose to go this direction.

 

[steve4102]

Why not save the hassle and trouble and just use 221 Fireball brass?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601145641

Lee does not offer a Collet die in 221 Fireball and will not make one. They claim it is to short. Some Fireball shooters have used the Lee Collet die in 22 Hornet with spacers and washers.

My CZ Fireball like just about everything I feed it. It's favorite food is 40gr V-Max with 2400. Less barrel heat than other powders and accuracy is outstanding.

This is fire rounds and 100 yards fired by my 12 year old son. Gotta luv them CZ's.

 

[mrawesome22]

I also suggest just buying 221 brass.

So is there a way I can trim down the brass without the trim die.

Surely you have a case trimmer?

 

[mrawesome22]

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=144423
In stock, should ship tomorrow. You'll also need a 221Fireball FL die and a case trimmer.

 

[medalguy]

Yep buy new brass. I think it was about 40 cents per piece when I bought it a couple of months ago. I wouldn't do very much forming work for that kind of change.

 

[SVO]

LOL. love how people dog pile in with buying new brass when that wasn't the original question. Yes, new brass, when available, is the way to go. But the FB is a niche cartridge, with brass not being available at times, due to waiting for Remington to make another run. Only the OP can make the decision to buy new brass or form his own. Again, if forming FB brass from .223, as in the original question, you will end up with a long stem of a neck that is about 1/4" too long. It's easier and faster to use a trim die, hacksaw and file to knock off that excess neck.

Looking back at my load notes, I used IMR-4227 or IMR 4198 with 52 gr Sierra MK bullets with my XP-100. Velocity was around 2700 fps out of it's 10" barrel with either powder.

 

[briandg]

You've got to keep in mind that unless people clamor for fireball brass, remington will have no incentive to make it. So, if you look at the general market, wouldn't he be a much nicer guy if he went ahead and backordered factory brass, to show that demand is there?

I shoot fireball in an xp 100. I'd hate to have to make my own cartridges. My favorite rounds were actually made with AR15 purposed FMJ bullets with 4227.

 

[Scorch]

You can form 221 Fireball brass from 223, but you will end up with brass that is too long, has less internal capacity, and the necks will be too thick and require reaming or turning. But you can do it if needed if the cartridge ever becomes obsolete. In the mean time, buy factory brass. It's cheaper, safer, and easier overall.

 

[flashhole]

I prefer to make my own. The link below is how I started out but have made a few refinements since that post. Yes, you may need to neck turn, especially if you use military brass. If you do neck turn you can get a case that is custom fit to your guns chamber. Re-forming WW and R-P 223 brass does not require neck turning because the case walls aren't think like military brass. The slightly diminished case capacity is not an issue. I use Reloader #7 with 40 - 50 grain bullets. My gun is a Rem 700 (picture). It's a tack driver too but groups open up a bit if the barrel gets hot. I replaced the factory synthetic stock with the thumbhole laminate shown.


http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=54312&highlight=flashhole

 

[BillCA]

For a rifle barrel over 10" we used the IMR powders (4198 & 4227) with excellent results. For the XP-100, those powders worked but also produced qiute a flash. Using 2400 or H110 worked fine in the short barrels. In the longer barrels, the IMR powders gave more consistent results out over 100 yards.

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

Ok as I stated before I did order a set of Lee dies. FL sizer die, and seater. I have 40 rounds of fired .221 brass now. The thing is with brass for me $40+ per 100 is expensive. I make $10.80 per hour. I also have bills, and a truck payment to make. My fun budget is $30, if I go over that I have to start sacrificing things. Like food, hence top ramen broke. I have tons of Hornady .223 brass. I will just have to suck it up and buy the dies. The forming die is available. The trimming die is a 30+day wait. I will pay for both when I can scrape up the cash. I will probably when I can trade off some of my trade brass for some powder, and small rifle primers.
BTW if I can get the reloads to group as well as the Rmington V-point 55 grain BT I will. be estatic. 5 shot group at 100 yards off of a lead sled grouped at under 0.400 inches. From the sandbags it was around 0.600 or a bit under. So I am sure with the right load it will deliver even more impressive groups.
Thanks all
Nate

 

[flashhole]

You might try this and see if it works.

Remove the extractor ball assemly completely from your FL sizing die.

Adjust the die in your press to do a FL resize on the brass as if it were a 221 Fireball case.

Run a 223 brass up into the die. That should give you a long-neck beer bottle shaped case. I'm saying should because I don't have a set of Lee dies for bottlenecked cases and I don't know for sure if it will work. Second from left in photo.

I picked up a mini tubing cutter for $7 at the hardware store and I use the tubing cutter to do the initial cut on the long neck.

Use your deburring tool and open the case neck where it collapsed from the rollers and blade on the tubing cutter. You want to open it to the same inside diameter as the uncollapsed neck. This should allow you to use a Lee Case Length Gage to trim it to the proper length. My cutter is the ball handle type shown below. Also shown is a deburring tool (I like the Lyman 50 cal tool because it is easier on the hands, as is the ball handle cutter), the lock stude (with a case in it), and a 1/4" nut driver that I use to hold the lock stud when I trim. The gage (shaft with pin that goes through the flash hole) bottoms out on the base of the lock stud and sets the proper trim length. These things are dirt simple to use.

Trim the brass to length using a Lee Cutter and Lock Stud ($6) and the appropriate 221 Case Length Gage ($5). The problem here is the Hornady brass may be too thick at the neck to allow the Case Length Gage to go into the case after it's been run through the sizing die without opening the neck back up with a sizing mandrel. I don't think you will have that problem with WW or R-P brass head-stamped 223 Rem. If the Hornady brass does not work I would be willing to swap 1-for-1 Hornady 223 brass for WW 223 brass.

Re-assemble the FL sizing die with the expander ball assembly and FL size the brass.

Trim it a second time.

Try chambering the empty brass in your gun. It should chamber without any problem.

Seat a bullet in the reformed case to the desired length and use it as a dummy round and chamber it again. Do not put a primer or powder in the dummy. If it does not chamber the neck is probably too thick and will need to be turned before it will chamber in your gun.

These are just suggestions to maybe save you some money and get you going.

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

Flashhole thank you for the info I just may give that a try. I already have the lee cutter it came with the loading kit. I am waiting on the case length gage, and shell holder to come in. I will give it a try when I get them. I have 40 pieces of brass now. So those should get me by till the other stuff comes in the mail. If push comes to shove I do have another 20 rounds of the remington ammo stashed. If the hand loads shoot as well as the factory stuff does I will be a verry happy camper.

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

Update

I did manage to aquire 100 new cases through a trade for some range pick up brass. (Gotta love those guys that leave 100 pieces of .300 Win mag brass in the shopping bag from the store they bought it from.)
I am still waiting for the case lenght quage, and shell holder from Lee. As well as the collet die. They do make one for it, it cost me over $50 just for the die. I did the removing the decapping pin from the sizing die and ran a few in, then cut them down with a tubing cutter. I used a friend's Lyman trimmer to finish the job. They do chamber, and shoot well. Only one minor problem is that they tend to split at the case mouth after about 3 loading. (but then it was free so how can I complain.) I have 12 firings on my first 40 pieces of brass. All are still the same length. Nostler's staff were not lying when they said it had a very good, and long case life.
I have tried a few differant powders. I will give a review of them in a seperate thread. Thankyou to all that replied.

 

[flashhole]

anneal the case necks and it should prevent them from splitting. In fact, if you anneal the 223 brass half way down the case prior to re-forming it goes a lot easier.