garry owen
New member
With the introduction of Rugers new 1911 in the Series 70 configuration, it seems alot of people prefer it this way. What are the differences between the two? What are the pros and cons for each?
1911: Series 70 vs Series 80 type
- Thread starter garry owen
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Micahweeks
New member
Garry, I'm with you on this. Being new to the intricacies of 1911s myself, I'm dying to know the answer, too. All I know is that the series 80 has a firing pin block and the 70 does not. As far as pros and cons, I don't know.
garry owen
New member
I am hoping this isn't a duplicate thread BTW. I just have very little practical knowledge of a 1911. Those of you in the know please enlighten me.
Series 70 only applies to Colt Government Models that are marked that way. In those models, Colt introduced a "collet" style barrel bushing that was intended to provide a tight barrel to bushing fit without needing hand-fitting. It wasn't terribly popular.
The Series 80 was also a Colt "innovation" where they added a firing pin block to the slide and a pair of levers that pushed that block up and clear of the firing pin as the trigger was pulled. The intent was to prevent the pistol from firing due to being dropped squarely on the muzzle. During such an, unlikely, instance the steel firing pin could develop enough inertia to move forward and strike the primer of a chambered round.
Wayne Novak's method of preventing that was to use a firing pin made from lighter material, along with a heavier firing pin return spring. With such a solution, no mechanical firing pin blocks are needed. Springfield Armory has been using that design for years.
From all reports, Ruger has adopted that same Novak design... which some folks are incorrectly calling Series 70.
Kimber's Series II uses the Schwartz style firing pin block which is deactivated by depressing the grip safety.
The Series 80 was also a Colt "innovation" where they added a firing pin block to the slide and a pair of levers that pushed that block up and clear of the firing pin as the trigger was pulled. The intent was to prevent the pistol from firing due to being dropped squarely on the muzzle. During such an, unlikely, instance the steel firing pin could develop enough inertia to move forward and strike the primer of a chambered round.
Wayne Novak's method of preventing that was to use a firing pin made from lighter material, along with a heavier firing pin return spring. With such a solution, no mechanical firing pin blocks are needed. Springfield Armory has been using that design for years.
From all reports, Ruger has adopted that same Novak design... which some folks are incorrectly calling Series 70.
Kimber's Series II uses the Schwartz style firing pin block which is deactivated by depressing the grip safety.
I'm confused both series need to have the grip safety depressed in order for the gun to fire when the trigger is pulled.
The Colt Series 80 introduced in 1983 known as the Colt "MK IV Series 80" pistols. The biggest change to the 1911 design came about in these guns when a new firing pin block safety system was incorporated.
A series of internal levers and a plunger positively blocked the firing pin from moving until the trigger was pressed, thus eliminating the possibility of the gun discharging if dropped onto a hard surface or struck hard.
The Ruger is not really a Series 70. It simply lacks the Series 80 firing pin safety mechanism.
There's some confusion on this. When the Series 80 pistols introduced the new safety, folks started calling everything without it a Series 70, although that was incorrect. It got really confusing when even Colt started marking some recent models as "Series 70."
If I apply the modern usage, my 1943 Remington Rand is a Series 70. I guess it involves time travel.
Technically speaking, a Series 70 used the collet bushing. The only (true) Series 70 pistols were the Government and Gold Cup. There were no Series 70 Commanders, nor did anyone but Colt make them.
Just to muddy the waters, there were (true) Series 70 pistols with the Series 80 safety. I have a Gold Cup that has it.
There's some confusion on this. When the Series 80 pistols introduced the new safety, folks started calling everything without it a Series 70, although that was incorrect. It got really confusing when even Colt started marking some recent models as "Series 70."
If I apply the modern usage, my 1943 Remington Rand is a Series 70. I guess it involves time travel.
Technically speaking, a Series 70 used the collet bushing. The only (true) Series 70 pistols were the Government and Gold Cup. There were no Series 70 Commanders, nor did anyone but Colt make them.
Just to muddy the waters, there were (true) Series 70 pistols with the Series 80 safety. I have a Gold Cup that has it.
True for the original Series 70s but, when in response to the demand from customers dissatisfied with the firing pin safety (more parts = more things to go wrong in my opinions), Colt again started producing Series 70s in 2002 - without the firing pin safety but with solid bushings - and is still producing them.
Top one original made in 1970 - bottom one "second generation - repro model". A lot of collet bushings did break and, when replaced, broke again - but a lot didn't break - probably something to do with the barrel-bushing-slide fit in certain pistols - but not clear why.
My original has well over 10,000 rounds through it and is still using the original collet bushing. As far as I can see, there is no difference in accuracy - or anything else - except disassembly on the original requires the slide be pushed back at least 1/2" to be able to turn the bushing and release the recoil spring plug.
Most people have taken to calling any 1911 without a mechanical firing pin block, "Series 70", since that model pre-dated Colt's firing-pin block-equipped Series 80. Although I've never seen any manufacturer but Colt get grief for it, S80 is also used by Remington, Para Ordnance, Auto Ordnance, Taurus, SIG, and probably others. It's a durable, well-proven system. The grip safety-operated Swartz system was introduced by Colt in the '30s, abandoned during WWII, then reintroduced by Kimber in their Series II. Smith & Wesson also uses the Swartz system. The sear lever/spring assembly is present only in Gold Cup models, of both Series 70 and Series 80 type. I have a number of Series 80 Colts, and after swapping the Series 80 bits in and out of them, for back-to-back tests of the trigger pull weight and "feel", I decided I couldn't tell if the bits were in, or not. The plunger return spring adds a few ounces to the pull weight, but unless there are a burrs or tool marks on the levers, plunger, etc., or you're trying for a 24-ounce trigger pull, it's not noticeable.
Like 9x19 said, the only true Series-70 pistols are the ones marked that way, and they did employ a collet bushing system to ensure tighter barrel lockup without having to hand fit each pistol. I believe they called it the Accurizer bushing, or something like that. These pistols were similar to the original 1911 design in that they lacked a firing pin block safety. It was later realized that if a 1911 pattern pistol took a nose dive and landed muzzle first, it could, however unlikely, discharge because of the downward inertia of the firing pin overcoming the resistance of the firing pin spring. To make this problem (or non-issue, depending on your point of view) go away, Colt introduced a lock plunger into the ignition lockwork that would block the firing pin from traveling to the primer unless the plunger was disengaged by movement of the trigger. Pistols with this new part were branded as Series-80 pistols and introduced to the market in the early '80s.
Because they are called Series 80, and the most recent design that Colt had made that lacked the new safety were the Series 70, the term "Series 70" has become corrupted to mean any 1911 that lacks a firing pin block safety, but it is not technically correct usage. It's become so common though, that it's hardly worth resisting the change of meaning of the term.
Jason
Because they are called Series 80, and the most recent design that Colt had made that lacked the new safety were the Series 70, the term "Series 70" has become corrupted to mean any 1911 that lacks a firing pin block safety, but it is not technically correct usage. It's become so common though, that it's hardly worth resisting the change of meaning of the term.
Jason
I forgot to mention there were some problems with the firing pin block when replacing the firoing pin, the block plunger wasn't properly located with the firing pin and produced "ADs" because the firing pin was set in the forward position - more an operator problem than a design problem but, it did happen.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Incorrect.pilpens said:
ALL 1911s have a functional grip safety. The grip safety blocks the trigegr from being pulled.
Colt's Series 80 safety system (also used by several other major 1911 makers, including Para USA, SIG Arms, and Kahr/Auto-Ordnance) adds to the grip safety and thumb safety a firing pin block to prevent the firing pin from striking the primer in the event the hammer accidentally falls without the trigger being pulled.
In the Colt Series 80 system, the firing pin block is deactivated by pulling the trigger. Despite claims that this affects trigger pull -- it doesn't. I can easily get clean 3-pound triggers in Series 80 Colts (although I consider 3 pounds too light for a carry weapon).
Both Kimber and S&W also use firing pin blocks in their 1911s, but theirs are not actuated by the trigger, theirs are actuated by depressing the grip safety. If your two Kimbers are series II Kimbers, they have the firing pin block and are not "Series 70" pistols. "Series 70" does not in any way refer to the firing pin block. Kimber's is actually a variation on an older system used by Colt before WW2, the Swartz safety. S&W's is also a variant of the Swartz, but a bit farther afield from the original (I think).
It is a common misconception to refer to the Colt Series 70 "system" as if it were an analog to the Series 80 system. As has been commented above, the Series 70 was a specific model, in the Government (full-size) pistols only), incorporating some special features. (but NOT a firing pin safety.) In comparing the Series 80 pistols to other Colts (and to other brands) what we are really doing is comparing Series 80 to non-Series 80 pistols.
g.willikers
New member
The collet bushing gets bad press, but the steel Commander I once had, in .38 Super, never suffered from having one.
And it got used a lot, over many years of steady range and match time.
Yeah, and I stupidly sold it.
And it got used a lot, over many years of steady range and match time.
Yeah, and I stupidly sold it.
Watch youtube, much? There's no way a round can be fed into the chamber with the firing pin locked forward of the Series 80 plunger (try assembling the gun that way; the pin protrudes about a quarter-inch). It is physically impossible for the gun to fire and cycle with the firing pin locked forward. Think about how the gun works; the slide moves forward, picking up the rim of the round in the magazine. If the firing pin were protruding, there's no way the round could get ahead of the firing pin and into the chamber. And, until the barrel is locked in battery, the firing pin isn't aligned with primer of the feeding round, anyway.
Sorry, there's a guy on youtube with one or more videos "revealing" the "fatal flaw" of Series 80, claiming that both his and his father's Series 80 Colts fired with the firing pin locked forward. No explanation of how both pistols got improperly assembled, and then loaded, with the firing pins protruding. I don't think it's physically possible for the firing pin to get ahead of the S80 plunger with the gun assembled, so it's not like the firing pin could jump ahead of the plunger in mid-cycle. After posting, I dreamed of a situation in which a gun could possibly load a round from the magazine via inertia, while the slide was open enough that the round wouldn't hit the protruding firing pin, avoiding the problem of the round being unable to move up the breechface due to the protruding pin. OK, so now we have a loaded chamber, with the slide flying forward, but the slide will come to a halt when the firing pin stubs against the case head, above the primer. And, how did the gun fire, to set all this in motion, anyway? If the slide, firing pin protruding, did slam home and ignite a chambered round, the round would discharge with the slide well out of battery. I suspect the gun would suffer enough damage from firing out of battery that firing again, under any conditions, might not be possible.
TylerD45ACP
New member
The Series 70, imho.