1911: Ruin a Trigger Job
- Thread starter LBussy
- Start date
I certainly would not ague with Bill Wilson about a 1911.
I am not well informed what impact dropping the slide would have on trigger functions.
I'd be happy to learn.
I do understand a % the slide forward impulse ought to be absorbed by feeding and chambering a round.
Its not good for all that to be absorbed via the barrel feet against the slide stop pin and then to the holes in the frame.
I do know getting all of the timing and lockup just right takes care,and that is good reason to not dry-drop the slide.
I am not well informed what impact dropping the slide would have on trigger functions.
I'd be happy to learn.
I do understand a % the slide forward impulse ought to be absorbed by feeding and chambering a round.
Its not good for all that to be absorbed via the barrel feet against the slide stop pin and then to the holes in the frame.
I do know getting all of the timing and lockup just right takes care,and that is good reason to not dry-drop the slide.
The fear, traditionally, is that a heavy steel trigger could trip the hammer from inertia when the slide slams home.
The half-cock notch, dropping on the nose of the sear would damage the finely finished surface of the sear.
Today, I think the fear is that even with lightweight triggers in widespread use, reduced surface contact between the hammer and sear, along with lightened sear- and main-springs, could allow the sear to be jarred from the hammer by the slide slamming home.
On a G.I. pistol with a 6# trigger, .030" hammer hooks, and full-power springs, it's not an issue unless a part is already worn or damaged.
The half-cock notch, dropping on the nose of the sear would damage the finely finished surface of the sear.
Today, I think the fear is that even with lightweight triggers in widespread use, reduced surface contact between the hammer and sear, along with lightened sear- and main-springs, could allow the sear to be jarred from the hammer by the slide slamming home.
On a G.I. pistol with a 6# trigger, .030" hammer hooks, and full-power springs, it's not an issue unless a part is already worn or damaged.
Nothing good can come from letting the slide slam shut on an empty chamber. It's probably not going to hurt anything doing it once or twice but doing it routinely isn't a good idea.
From what I've heard it can start to cause extra wear and peening of the surfaces where the slide and barrel and frame interact. I'm not sure about the effect on the trigger, but I have no interest in finding out from first hand experience.
From what I've heard it can start to cause extra wear and peening of the surfaces where the slide and barrel and frame interact. I'm not sure about the effect on the trigger, but I have no interest in finding out from first hand experience.
Consider that the context of Wilson's statement is the 1980's. I think the definition of a "good" trigger job has changed some since. Back then, conventional pistol still had the most competitors, and a 3.5 lb. trigger on a Goldcup, with its massive wide steel trigger stirrup, meant hammer following was common. Always pulling the trigger back to keep the disconnector down while the slide went home was the standard defense against it. Cooper's rule to keep your finger off the trigger until your sights were covering a target was not yet commonly observed back then. Tap and rack clearing exercises that go with practical shooting were not yet common knowledge. Trying triggers at shows, I found so many bad trigger jobs back then, it seemed hard to believe the gunsmiths responsible could stay in the business. But in the 80's a factory trigger frequently felt like it had been lubricated with sand, so about any level of improvement seemed good by comparison.
Since then, combat-related matches have become the more heavily populated ones and, once we got past the 1980's, more manufacturers began improving factory trigger work. By the 2,000's a factory trigger didn't automatically mean it felt like it had been lubricated with sand, and fewer people were tempted to mess with their own triggers, which probably helped, too.
For a combat 1911, my idea of a good trigger includes that it allows me to lock the slide back with no magazine in place, balance the gun, muzzle angled up, with my thumb and index finger grasping it way down at the mainspring housing retaining pin, and then to release the slide stop with my other hand and not have the hammer follow the slide. Otherwise, I don't consider it safe. Yes, it's got a 4.5 lb trigger and yes, the hammer hooks are 0.025" tall, but it still must break without a trace of creep and have a large enough portion of the 4.5 lb. total made by the tension of the left leaf spring finger (the hooked sear leaf) that the pull does not feel heavy¹. Letting a slide slam forward without feeding does put extra stress on the barrel locking lugs and link lugs and is not something would want to do a lot, but I still use it as a proof of safety test.
There are a couple of easy things that help get there. A skeletonized aluminum trigger stirrup and trigger bow or one with a titanium bow or a carbon fiber trigger stirrup or other trigger mass-minimizing technique will help. One cause of following is when the trigger's own inertia tends to hold it still while the slide, coming forward to a stop, transfers its forward momentum to the frame suddenly enough to pull the sear sharply forward against the bow. So, the less inertial mass the trigger has, the less likely it is for that pull to be hard enough to dislodge the sear. You can also help by shaving the hammer nose down where the slide slips over it until the slide just rotates the hammer back far enough to cock and just maybe a hundredth more (to allow for wear and slop to develop). This way the hammer doesn't drop hard onto the sear nose when the slide goes forward. That avoids bounce and impact dislodging.
Note that anything you do to make hammer following less likely also makes doubling less likely.
¹The more first-stage take-up force you have, the less hard the added force needed to drop the hammer feels. This has to do with how nerves are hard-wired. It is easy to prove to yourself. Take a postage scale and apply 10 ounces of force with your index finger. Then press it up to 11 ounces and back to 10. Your finger can barely tell the difference as a sense of pressure. Then repeat using a bigger scale and 10 lbs and 11 lbs. The same thing happens. You can barely tell a pressure difference with the added weight, even though it's more than the whole 11 ounces you felt on the smaller scale. As your nerve endings get loaded up with pressure, the difference you feel with any given amount of additional pressure decreases.
Since then, combat-related matches have become the more heavily populated ones and, once we got past the 1980's, more manufacturers began improving factory trigger work. By the 2,000's a factory trigger didn't automatically mean it felt like it had been lubricated with sand, and fewer people were tempted to mess with their own triggers, which probably helped, too.
For a combat 1911, my idea of a good trigger includes that it allows me to lock the slide back with no magazine in place, balance the gun, muzzle angled up, with my thumb and index finger grasping it way down at the mainspring housing retaining pin, and then to release the slide stop with my other hand and not have the hammer follow the slide. Otherwise, I don't consider it safe. Yes, it's got a 4.5 lb trigger and yes, the hammer hooks are 0.025" tall, but it still must break without a trace of creep and have a large enough portion of the 4.5 lb. total made by the tension of the left leaf spring finger (the hooked sear leaf) that the pull does not feel heavy¹. Letting a slide slam forward without feeding does put extra stress on the barrel locking lugs and link lugs and is not something would want to do a lot, but I still use it as a proof of safety test.
There are a couple of easy things that help get there. A skeletonized aluminum trigger stirrup and trigger bow or one with a titanium bow or a carbon fiber trigger stirrup or other trigger mass-minimizing technique will help. One cause of following is when the trigger's own inertia tends to hold it still while the slide, coming forward to a stop, transfers its forward momentum to the frame suddenly enough to pull the sear sharply forward against the bow. So, the less inertial mass the trigger has, the less likely it is for that pull to be hard enough to dislodge the sear. You can also help by shaving the hammer nose down where the slide slips over it until the slide just rotates the hammer back far enough to cock and just maybe a hundredth more (to allow for wear and slop to develop). This way the hammer doesn't drop hard onto the sear nose when the slide goes forward. That avoids bounce and impact dislodging.
Note that anything you do to make hammer following less likely also makes doubling less likely.
¹The more first-stage take-up force you have, the less hard the added force needed to drop the hammer feels. This has to do with how nerves are hard-wired. It is easy to prove to yourself. Take a postage scale and apply 10 ounces of force with your index finger. Then press it up to 11 ounces and back to 10. Your finger can barely tell the difference as a sense of pressure. Then repeat using a bigger scale and 10 lbs and 11 lbs. The same thing happens. You can barely tell a pressure difference with the added weight, even though it's more than the whole 11 ounces you felt on the smaller scale. As your nerve endings get loaded up with pressure, the difference you feel with any given amount of additional pressure decreases.
Well that makes me feel better about things and it does make sense. The more of that book I read the more I realized I had to read it within it's context. Lots of what he said is no longer true (about competition mostly).
I guess the book is worth what I paid for it ... it was a free download for signing up for their newsletter.
I guess the book is worth what I paid for it ... it was a free download for signing up for their newsletter.